I don't know, I've seen my cat catch mice and voles before. It's not a quick end for them.

Yeah, it's a lot different than what we humans have proven capable of, but she does seem to enjoy it in a sadistic way.

I don't see progress at all, at least since the histories written in the Bible. Violence and depravity were a feature of the Biblical stories and they're a feature of us "modern" people. Saddam's son's debauchery and psycho-sexual murder fit right in with the twin cities destroyed by God in Genesis. To change would require either organic evolution or an evolution of culture. I see neither. We just have more toys.

I see dead people.

Kitty is keeping those hunting skills honed, just in case. Of course people may not practice their hunting skills on other people, or is that why countries wage little wars every once in a while? Never having been in the service, is an army as effective when there is no collective memory of killing?

But we verbally beat up on each other...here and on every other blog site in the Internet. :smash:

BENZ-LGB "QUOTE"....I don't believe in free will. We are our biology...our
biology is us.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUH????:confused:

So "YOU" don't have a choice...:eek:

WOW....never heard that before.

I'm sure glad I have free will! I have made some bad choices (a bunch I wish I could take back) & some good ones....The truth is... good or bad they have all been my "CHOICES".

It is not a new concept. Many philosophers have expressed similar views and have had similar thoughts.

You only think you do...if you honestly and dispassionately examine your life choices, not the little ones but the major ones, you will see that freewill had very little to do with it. If you look at life like eating an artichoke, peeling away the layers so that you can get to the heart of it, you will see that at the very core of our actions -- what we think of as freewill -- there are no choices, and there is little or no freewill, only biology driving us.

If you choose to believe in freewill, that's fine. I will not seek to persuade you otherwise. Live long enough, however, and you may understand.

BTW, an dnot to change the subject, the other day I met a woman who had traveled from NY to California in her Benz veggie oil burner. she produly stated that she only paid a few bucks for diesel fuel. She said that in most places she just used free, "waste" veggie oil from restaurants and fast food places. Her car gave out a distinctive, and very appealing, french fries smell.

I am very sorry I sold my old diesel.

[QUOTE=BENZ-LGB]It is not a new concept. Many philosophers have expressed similar views and have had similar thoughts.

You only think you do...if you honestly and dispassionately examine your life choices, not the little ones but the major ones, you will see that freewill had very little to do with it. If you look at life like eating an artichoke, peeling away the layers so that you can get to the heart of it, you will see that at the very core of our actions -- what we think of as freewill -- there are no choices, and there is little or no freewill, only biology driving us.

If you choose to believe in freewill, that's fine. I will not seek to persuade you otherwise. Live long enough, however, and you may understand.


Very interesting concept......
Yet if a Calvinist expresses the view that man has no free will, he is often criticized.

It's knee-jerk reaction by anti-religionists whose minds close when faith is mentioned.

Concerning Calvinist predestination, I don't think it has anything to do with genes, does it? I mean, if genes are the determiner of predestination, then a mutation changes destiny. Oh I see, God predetermined which gene would mutate at exactly that moment. Wow.

Is this argument based on God's omnipotency? He created everything and it goes exactly according to his plan. To have things NOT go according to plan would mean that God is not omnipotent. Etc.

Does this mean that God is incapable of creating a universe that could surprise him? If so, that is a limitation of God's power.

Bot

Incidentally (and I know that Bot's comment was not necessarily meant at me) I am not closed-minded when it comes to matters of faith. Faith is faith, you either have it or you don't. I respect people who have faith -- I don't always respect some of the things that they do in the name of their faith.

I am, however, anti-religion. I've seen what atrocities have been committed, and continued to be committed, in the name of religion (any religion all religions). Dogmatism is anathema to the concept of a free spirit.

I think that I would have liked to have met Jesus. And I admired him the most when he had his most human-like moment, at the cross where even he questioned God's plan ("why have you forsaken me?").

If the son of god can have doubts, however fleeting, about his father's plan then he is A-OK with me and it certainly justifies my own doubting.

I am, however, closed-minded on two subjects:

1. People who hurt other people, especially children -- fry them I say.
2. And communism, and the atrocities it has has caused in my native Cuba (and elsewhere) -- I say fry all communists and their apologists. And I do extend my contempt and hatred to all dictators and oppressors. But that is the subject of a different thread altogether.

I do miss Calvin and Hobbes :D

BENZ-LGB Quote:...You only think you do...if you honestly and dispassionately examine your life choices, not the little ones but the major ones, you will see that freewill had very little to do with it. If you look at life like eating an artichoke, peeling away the layers so that you can get to the heart of it, you will see that at the very core of our actions -- what we think of as freewill -- there are no choices, and there is little or no freewill, only biology driving us.
_________________________________________________________________

What a.. BOLD FACE LIE!:eek:

I make hundreds... if not thousands of choices EVERDAY ;) And I'm accountable for everyone of them. It was "MY" choice to respond to your post...NOT BIOLODGY :silly:

What are running from... that makes YOU NOT WANT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE for your actions? :confused:

One more thing.. I cant figure out is why It bothers "YOU" if someone hurts or kills a child??

According to you we have NO FREE WILL... so why get mad at the perpetrator? The killer/molester didn't have a choice & therefor there is "NO RIGHT OR WRONG" according to YOU! YOUR belief in "NO FREE WILL" is PURE... LUNACY!!

Oh yeah...running my car & truck off of waste veggie oil is lots of fun. :D If you would like more info on running veggi oil..Email me I would be glad to help;)

No, it was your desire to be argumentative (and I mean argumentative in the nicest possible way, I like to argue too). You couldn't help yourself, even if you wanted to.

Just like you will not be able to avoid responding to this post.

I am still accountable for my actions, regardless of the source of my motivation. I bear direct responsibility for every one of my actions, regardless of what compels/drives me to do it.

There is a big difference between the compulsion/motivation for doing an act and responsibility for the consequences of that act.

Because it is wrong, regardless of the motivation: freewill or biology. There are absolute rights and wrongs, regardless of motive.

You are confusing apples and oranges.

The actions that you believe are the result of "freewill" are simply the expression of a genetic memory hardwired into the very fiber of our being. You think that you are exercising freewill when in fact the programming hardwired into your genetic make-up, through thousand and thousands of years of human existence. We are our biology.

In the animal kingdom a lion kills an impala (if it can catch it) because he is hungry. That's biology at work. If a pack of hungry hyenas, circles around the lion and its kill, the lion may walk away, to avoid getting into a fight with the hyenas.

What appears as freewill on the part of the lion (running away from the murderous hyenas) is simply biology: "live to fight another day."

We are not that much different from the lion.

If you make the punishment for hurting children (or pick whatever crime you wish) painful enough, a different kind of biology will come into play: avoidance of pain.

Your belief in freewill makes as little sense to me as my belief in biology makes to you.

I'll leave it at that.

I would like to see the day when we stop depending on extortionist foreigners for our fuel needs.


Peace out!

BENZ-LGB...Your a full blown WACK JOB!:silly:

That being said...I have also enjoyed your responses to my posts ;)

Email me sometime and we can talk Veggie.

Take care & God Bless :D

See, I was right, you couldn't resist responding.... :eek:

I'll touch basis with you on the veggie thing. I am so tired of putting money in the wrong people's pocket

Biology or freewill, it doesn't matter, I just don't like being held over a barrel. :mad:

The argument about predestination always devolves into a form of solipsism.

But ya'll knew I was going to say that.

Careful you don't solip up there...

Genio y figura hasta la sepultura.:eek:

How To Get To Heaven!
 

Man is a sinner.

Romans 3:10, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
.
Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
There is a price on sin, eternal death in hell.

Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 5:12, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Revelation 21:8, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." :eek: :o :(

Jesus paid that price on the cross. :D

Romans 5:8, "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1st Timothy 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

By faith in Jesus Christ we can be saved.
Salvation is NOT found in a religion or good works, but in a person...the person JESUS CHRIST!..:D

IT'S YOUR PERSONAL CHOICE.....HEAVEN OR HELL????????????

Whether you BIELIVE OR NOT IN THE GOSBEL does not change the fact that it is TRUE!!..;)

Put another way ..If Im wrong no biggie...but if its.. TRUE the NON BIELIVER IS JACKED IN THE WORST WAY.....by his/her own choice!

I'm not sure what the "gosbel" is.....

But if I were to employ the same "logic" that you are using... then the fact that you DO believe in it does not inherently make it true.

Mike

I think it is you who is confusing apples and oranges on this one...

If EVERYTHING is predetermined, programmed, whatever you want to call it... and there is no "free will", then aren't terms like "right", "wrong", "motivation", "accountability", and "responsibility" pretty much irrelevant, since you argue that we are merely at the mercy of "destiny"?....

Sorry bro, but I don't see how you can have it both ways.

Either we DO make individual choices, and thus ARE responsible for our own actions....

...OR...

We are completely under the control of our "destiny", and thus are NOT directly responsible for anything that this predetermining force compels us to do.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Your right! :D

Its not about what "I" believe.... It's about GODS WORD!.. & GOD IS TRUTH!! :D...AMEN!

What makes it "true"? You "believe" this, but how do you KNOW it? You do not. How do you PROVE it? It cannot be proven. It cannot be demonstrated. It cannot be tested.

Religion is ALL about "belief". Blind faith. In fact, the Bible specifically demands it. I find "blind faith" in ANYTHING to be inherently stupid and naive.

Your entire belief system is based upon your belief in ONE document, the Bible.

Sorry, but I've read it cover to cover, MANY times... and I need a lot more proof than "well, Peter and Paul and John (and a few other guys) wrote it (supposedly, since there is no proof of this), and they say that "God said it" (which there is DEFINITELY no proof of), so it MUST be true."

:rolleyes:

Not good enough.

Mike

A Christian DOES NOT HAVE BLIND FAITH!! :D

We Believe In our LORD and SAVIOR.. because of historical FACT!! Over 500 WITNESES TESTIFY that they had seen JESUS CHRIST after HE had been RESERTCTED FROM THE DEAD!....Historical Fact! ;)

Do "YOU" BELIEVE THAT.... GEORGE WASHINTON ...was our first president?

WHY?????????????

Have you ever talked to him?... Ever SEEN HIM ??

Do you KNOW anyone who has ever SEEN HIM or TALKED TO HIM?...Answer NO!!!

So why should we BELIEVE that GEORGE WASHINGTON was our first president?

I'll tell you why???... YOU & I and... THE REST OF THE COUNTRY BELIEVES GEOGRE WASHINTON was the first PRESIDENT of the USA...is because of HISTORICAL FACT!;)

I "believe" that George Washington was our President since COUNTLESS historical documents and accounts serve as evidence of this fact. There is NO significant evidence to the contrary.

However, since I am not an eyewitness to his Presidency, then I cannot say that my confidence in that fact is absolutely 100%... But since the supporting evidence and documentation is overwhelming, then my confidence in that fact is probably 99.8%, if you want to get nitty-gritty about it....

However, your belief is supported by only ONE isolated document: The Bible.

A publication which is FULL of inaccuracies and inconsistencies. There are blatant contradictions from one chapter and/or "book" to the next, and from one of the many versions/translations to the next. It is a HIGHLY unreliable source of historical data, there are numerous versions and translations of it which contain translational errors, grammatical errors, timeline discrepancies, outright contradictions....

Not to mention absolute impossibilities: According to the timeline of the Bible, our planet (and the universe surrounding it) is only about 3,000-4,000 years old. Anyone with half a brain knows this to be untrue.

And perhaps you need to read a little more of the document you are relying upon, because the Bible DOES in fact demand unconditional faith from "believers", and it tells many stories of situations in which this faith was supposedly intentionally (and often harshly) "tested" by God.

Please try again.

Mike

QUOTE...

Please try again.

Mike
_________________________________________________________________

Hi Mike,

Its not "MY" job to win SOUL'S TO CHRIST... or anyone else's!..;)

My calling is to spread the GOSPEL!!!!!!....:D

It's a "PERSONAL CHOICE" to ACCEPT or REJECT ...GODS word! ;) That's why he gave us free will & I'm so grateful for it!

Take care & God Bless

Matt

I rest my case.

Here's the argument so far:

You claimed that this stuff is "true" merely because you "believe" it is true, and do so in spite of the fact that it is based upon only one isolated, uncorroborated, highly flawed document.

In response, I claimed that your belief does NOT make it inherently true, and I pointed out some of the many inaccuracies, errors, and inconsistencies contained within the Bible that you base your assertions upon, and I presented other supporting evidence, and your attempts to refute it were feeble, at best.

I then continued to stand my ground and point out the shortcomings and faults of the document that you base your beliefs upon. Instead of offering rational and measured response, you back down and resort to stereotypical and meaningless religious-dogma phrases such as "spreading the gospel" and "accept or reject god's word"....

Which is exactly what I expected to happen.

I have had a LOT of experience with this topic in my lifetime.

Happens every time.

Mike

Hi Mike,

It's your CHOICE...and thats all that matters........IN THE END!!

Ya, see theres 100% chance yer gonna DIE someday!... :eek:

In other words, you have no more evidence to offer... just an admonition that "it's your choice"......? And a mysterious, ominous reference to the inevitability of death, which implies that something bad might happen to me "in the end" if I choose not to "believe"......?

:rolleyes:

More meaningless drivel.




I DO believe in "choice".

More specifically, I believe in making wise, logical, well-informed choices.

Therefore, I choose not to have blind faith in ANYTHING.

Mike

I would tread carefully. There may come a time in life when faith in God is the only thing you have left. You can't discount that possibility 100%.

I can truthfully say that Geogre Washinton was definitely NOT the first president of the United States, and that's a fact!:rolleyes:



Another victim of the public educational system, no doubt.

A few comments--
the Bible is not full of inconsistencies and errors--your allegation does not constitue argument--. there are MANY things that people look at in a supperficial way and call errors, but to a scholar who takes the time to understand the times and cultures, there are not a "lot of errors". The one you mention about the age of the earth is one such example. The Bible NOWHERE makes any such statement on the age of the earth. I challenge you to find from Scripture any such claim. Some people have made that interpretation of the age of the earth by adding up the ages of the patriarchs as given in various geneologies. But that is an INTERPRETATION, and shows a woeful lack of undersdtanding of the culture of the Jews. It is strictly a western way of thinking to assume that a geneology includes every ancestor. This is not true of biblical cultures which often listed "important" ancestors and ommited "minor" ones. as an example, there is a geneology of Jesus given as " Son of Abraham, Son of David..." Would anyone assume that that is the entire list of Jesus progenitors? Of course not; many generations were ommited as the purpose of the author was to show Jesus as a Jew with the right to sit on David's throne. ( You may have demonstrated that you do indeed have " half a brain" :) )

The Bible is NOT " one isolated source". It is a collection of 66 writting by nearly as many authors over several thousand years that shows a remarkable consistency Prophecies written hundreds of years before Jesus birth were fulfilled by him in detail. Other prophecies concerning the city of Tyre were accurately fulfilled by Alexander the Great as he literally scraped the debris of the city up and threw it into the Mediterranean Sea to construct a causway so he could attack the island where the inhabitants of Tyre had fled to escape---altering forever the coastline.

As for the transcriptional "errors", those who actual study these things would tell you that the number of variant readings is incredibly small; most are equivilent to minor punctuation marks. The Dead Sea Scrolls have texts that are thousands of years older than previous texts and were virtually identical. If you compared the quality and number of Greek texts of the New Testament with, say, the writings of Homer, you would discover that our understanding of Homer is based on an incredibly small number of texts that have substantial textual variances.

As far as "hitorical" inaccuracies, Time and time again, archeology proves the accuracy of the biblical writers. You'd have to show me what you consider to be errors. I do not believe there are any. I will admit that you can place misguided interpretaions on some passages and produce "errors", but that is a far different thing.

To make the comments you did about the errors in the biblical shows a presupposition of disbelieve the Bible simply because it is the Bible. There are several people who have tried to write intellectually honest books disproving the Bible. Two of these wrote about a century ago. Thier book is entitled " Who moved the Stone?". They were a couple of lawyers in England who dicided to debuke the myth of the ressurection. The opening chapter of their book was entitled, " The Book that refused to be written". This chapter detailed their plane to disprove the resurrection by putting it "on trial" so to speak, admiting only evidence that would have been admissible in English court. They were overwhelmed by the evidence as they actually studied it, and thet were forced to abandon their original premise.
Yes there is faith involved, but as posted above, Christianity knows nothing of a blind faith.

I think this thread has probably outlived its usefulness.

No one is going to convince the other about the validity of their belief system.

So all we are doing now is posturing...(I know, I can be accusd of having done the same in other threads :eek: )

I was raised by a very "Christian" family, attended church 3 times a week until I was 16 or 17 (which was NOT optional, by the way...so much for the "freedom to choose"), my father used to be a pastor, my parents owned a Christian pre-school for 15 years, I have read and analyzed and studied the text in question more than I even care to remember, I was taken to church camps, bible studies, "revivals"........

:sleeping3:

You are most certainly NOT talking to a layman on this subject, so you can feel free to drop the air of superiority, and the implied assumption that I am just "misinterpreting" the text.

I don't have time to list the countless examples myself, but here's some to chew on:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/extra/bible-contradictions.html

http://atheism.about.com/od/biblecontradictionserror/

http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm

http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

http://www.greenwych.ca/bible-a.htm

http://www.deism.com/biblevotes.htm

See if you can explain all of THAT away as mere "misinterpretations".

:rolleyes:

Mike

Hi Mike,

Its is obvious that YOU have made YOUR CHOICE to reject JESUS CHRIST as your LORD & SAVIOR.

I'm pretty sure if JESUS CHRIST WAS STANDING NEXT TO YOU, YOU WOULD REJECT HIM.... just like so many did at his Crucifixion. :(

The TRUTH IS YOUR NOT LOOKING FOR PROOF :rolleyes: ....you have already made up your mind.

Bottom line... you have made your CHOICE.

And that's your God given right..

As long as your breathing.... by the GRACE OF GOD...there's HOPE!!:D


Take Care & God Bless,

We will keep you in our prayers

Matt & Carina (My Wife)

I would have liked to have met Jesus back in the days when he was preaching the gospel.

I would have like to ask him a few questions. I'd also probably have acted as his lawyer.

Even if he was not the son of god, he seemed like the kind of man I'd like to have as a friend and share a couple of parables with. :D

Benz-lgbji,
Unfortunately he doesn't give people that option. Look at what he said. If he wasn't the Son of God, then He was a certifiable lunatic. There is no room for the patronizing, " he was a good moral teacher..." dribble.

Mimemover,
You are absolutely free to make any choices you desire.
I am unaware of any " air of superiority" in my post.--I thought I simply answered some of your allegations with reasonable argument. ( The exception was the reference to your "half a brain comment"- which was insulting of all Christians). For someone with your credentials, you made some rather silly allegations.
Your parents must be at a loss to expalin " what went wrong" and why your beliefs are so different from theirs.

Mikemover,
As for the links you posted...
I glossed thru several of them. All I saw was the same superficial type of allegations you made in your post.
The Bible is a progressive revelation. God gave some parts and filled in the details with time. To say that such makes it an "error" is just to attack a straw man.

I do not have any illusion that I will be the one to present an argument, or line of reasoning that will change your mind. Thats OK, As I posted above, you are a free moral agent and free to believe in whatever you choose. I made a different choice, as have millions of thers.

But he was a good moral teacher. I prefer to think of Jesus as human. And, in fact, while he roamed around with his followers he was human.

Thinking of him as human makes him more accessible to me. And when he had his moment of doubt and questioned god on the cross (why have you forsaken me) it made his suffering palpable.

Look MS, you and Mike have been going at this for several pages of this thread. Mike will never convince the believers (actually, even though I don't know Mike I don't think he is trying to convert anyone). You will never convince the non-believers.

In matters of religion, where things are either accepted or rejected based on faith, no one will ever be able to win an argument. You either believe or you don't. Honest, intelligent and good people on both side of the issue will never be able to agree.

You have your bliefs, Mike has his and I have mine. Incidentally, like Mike I too come from a religious background. My dad is an elder at his church, his uncle was a minister and I taught Sunday school -- so go figure.

I'll tell you one thing though. If there is a god, then he gave me a brain and provided me wiht a modicumof mental horsepower. I think he should be pleased that I am using the intelligence he gave me to question things and to sort things out. In the end, if there is a god and if he wants to punish me for thinking and questioning, then so be it.

On the other hand, if I was god, I'd be pleased as pie that my creation was so resourceful.

One of the greatest joys that I have experienced as a father is when my children engage me in debate, sometimes spirited (but always respectful) and they question the things that I have taught them. Although I am generally politically conservative (just read my posts) my children are all over the place in the poilitical spectrum and that pleases me to no end...the fact that they are thinkers and not mindless bots.

The god that I can follow and believe in would get a good chuckle or two out of my efforts at trying to figure things out and he would not punish me if my thoughts led me in a different direction from all the stuff some men wrote down in a book that we call the Bible.

I think I've said all I can say on the subject. Peace out...

:thinking2

I was only answering a few of MM's allegations. Making charges is one thing, but if no one posts a response, some people may figure it means that there is no answer. I just wanted to present a little of the argument on the other side.
I think that arguing about religion is almost pointless.

On this we agree.

Logic and facts tend to go right out the window when arguing with religious types.

It's all based on emotion and beliefs... Which is hardly a solid basis for starting a logical, intelligent debate.

Mike

You mean "what went RIGHT".

When sitting in church, prayer meetings, church camps, revivals, etc.... I always looked around at those people and wondered, even as a pretty young child, "what is WRONG with all of these people"?.... So many of them are so pathetic, so weak, they carry so much guilt and remorse, they have no will or motivation of their own, they are like cattle. Not to mention the hypocrisy involved... The hypocrisy was sometimes just unbearable. I remember times as a teenager where I could barely prevent myself from shouting out "Are you people REALLY this stupid?!?!" right in the middle of a service.

Even as a kid, I could see this.

As an adult, I can CLEARLY see it, and I choose to completely separate myself from that insanity.

Nowadays, even my parents can see it to, at least to some degree.

Mike

Preach on, crazy man... I've heard it ALL before.

Yes, I have made my "choice". I have chosen logic and reason, facts and reality. And I'm doing just FINE... Your "prayers" are not required or desired, thank you.

Mike

I won't argue for either side in this debate ('cause I'm confused), but I do know let's just say a handful of people that are"religious" types, that you are definitely not qualified to argue with--using logic, facts, or even a calculator (I didn't say I was qualified to argue with them either).

The religious thing isn't worth arguing about because I am right and you are wrong? What part of that is intelligent debate??

I see some people like that, too. They do not represent all Christians.

Jesus taught many things, but He also said, " I, myself ( emphatic) am ( "I am" is the same as YHWH name of God from the OT) the Way, the Truth and the Light, NO ONE comes to the Father except thru me." and " I an my Father are One" ( claiming to be of the same essence and nature as God--which is why the Jews picked uip staones to stone him).

If He was not the Son of God, then He was a fruitcake. You can't pick and chose.

I live in California, fruitcakes don't bother me none! :eek:

As was noted, whether I believe or not in the accuracy of the gospel does not address its truth value. I happen to think it's all made up, but some of the players may represent actual humans.

Put slightly differently, this is Pascal's wager. He also seems to have missed its deficiency.

But don't worry. I really don't think you'll realize just how wrong you are when the activity in your brain finally stops.
Thus it is absolutely no loss for you to believe.

On the other hand, it is a huge loss for me to force myself to believe something that cannot possibly be true.

I think anyone might agree with that if they felt agreeable.

But then there would still be the question of 'what made it up?'... an erand boy delivering a bill for grocery clerks?.. ?

I was with you until the statement, above.

How can you know that the stuff in the Bible cannt possibly be true?

Perhaps this is more accurate: It doesn't conform to one's expectations of the world as one knows it.