Would you die for your country? - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #76 07-12-2006, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Every nation east of 00 deg longitude has been repelling invaders since time immemorial or we wouldn't call them "nations". Look at Germany and Japan, for example.

Occurred to me shortly after I wrote it. I saw an interview with Pete Seeger t'other day, and he said something I've thought before, something just about anybody who looks at history knows: we're all descended from the successful killers. Unsuccessful killers didn't procreate.

I watched Gladiator again the other night just because, and it struck me that the armies of various nations are more or less the mature offspring of the fighters in every tribe and fiefdom stretching back to prehistory. Two groups want the same real estate, easiest way to insure you get it, only way most of the time, was to wipe the other side out.

We can see that from what we know of varous Nat. Am tribes, in a more or less constant struggle for territory. Even so, they were able to bury the hatchet and trade with each other in many places. Still, the opportunity for a young Amer.Ind. to prove himself in battle was generally soon in coming, and there was little or no gnashing of teeth over the whies and wherefores.

It's not as simple now. Plenty of examples in the recent past where soldiers of a country were, sadly, led to a fool's death by some whacked out, power hungry leader(s).

That's why the question (would you die for your country) is not simple for me. We can't count on our pres-dent to automatically be a good and wise man. Our goodness as a nation depends on a lot more than the constitution and founding fathers and elections every two years. It depends on the countless thousands of police officers who go to work every day w/o seeking or accepting bribes. Likewise for the good pols we have left. It depends on a much higher degree of average honesty and morality per citizen than you'll find in many parts of the world.

And, it depends on the average man saying, no, hell no, I'm not going to travel 10,000 miles to kill some barefoot peasant that has no quarrel with me, nor I with him.

cmac2012 · #77 07-12-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sully

Damn, I promised myself to stay away from the OD Forum. I am glad to see that politics aren't discussed here.

That's the best tongue in cheek line on the site.

We swim in a sea of politics. Too important to leave it to the amateurs we have in office now.

Botnst · #78 07-12-2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KylePavao

Really good post..

Certain people always love to turn any thread into Dubya bashing...I think our boy GD even turned a thread about Russian subways into something similar..

Anyhow..I agree. Not all humans are inherently selfish, like many would like to think. Some do it for pride or country or service..but not to bring religion into this, I feel military service is a lot like being a nun or monk...now just give me a second to explain..

Both give up many freedoms, both get meager if any pay, both are housed communally in either a barracks or monastery, both eat, sleep, and work together 24hrs a day, and when it comes down to it both groups of men (or women) are brothers (or sisters) in all senses of the words. I the people who take up these sorts of careers, careers of service, do it for many of the same reasons: to serve others. Maybe one does it through the defense of their nation or cleaning up after a flood; and maybe the other serves other buy feeding the poor or teaching classes at school for free (like many Brothers ar my Catholic high school did)

Regardless, the paralells drawn between two seemingly unrelated occupations shows us that the act of service is a motivating factor not only for men and women serving with police, fire, emt, and as soldiers, but also for a plethora of occupations as well. And the fact that most of these occupations pay so poorly in comparison to other trades that do not require so much personal sacrifice show us that compassion for others and the call to service are both in inherently human, regardless of the who, where or what of the situation.

My a-political rant about this for the evening

Regards,
Kyle

You're probably onto something there.

I'd add that these organizations depend on the strange combination of idealism and malleability of young men. It is a small window in which a man is physically capable of demanding work, idealistic enough to believe his work makes a difference, and a willingness to be trained and led by older men. On average this si between 16 and 25. Not surprisingly this is the age group from which priests and soldiers are recruited.

An interesting question is, why men more than women? Yes, there are lots of female soldiers through history and today; yes, there are lots of nuns and priestesses. But the majority of soldiers and religious have always been men, across time and most cultures. Why?

B

t walgamuth · #79 07-12-2006, 09:21 AM

testosterone.

tom w

cmac2012 · #80 07-12-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MedMech

I used to think that most people would have the balls to fight but after I joined Mercedes Shop dot com that has changed. I suspect that 50% of the people would run for the hills or become traitors and the other 49% would fight and 1% would join the fight on their own budget, throw out the Geneva convention and cause some serious problems for the invaders.....I would be in that 1%.

Repelling an invader on our shores is a lot different than going halfway around the world to bomb hell out of someone because of a fear that if X, Y, and Z were to happen, them folks would be over here cutting our families' throats. I suspect I too would be willing to cause an invader some serious grief w/o excessive regard to protocol.

Hate to be the a$$, but this part here:

throw out the Geneva convention and cause some serious problems for the invaders.....

Isn't that a lot like the POV of Zarqawi and crew not to mention the staff at the Hanoi Hilton when John McCain was a guest?

cmac2012 · #81 07-12-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Reminds me of Kipling's poem.

Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling

I WENT into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it’s "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,—
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

Interesting poem. I'd not seen it before. And we thought Nam vets got the cold shoulder.

Makes you wonder though, if the home populace in general tends to be suspicious of the need and motives of far-flung foreign wars. The Redcoats in Kipling's time did very little defending of the home front, but were involved in colonial adventures in Afghanistan, India, and other places where the sun never set.

Moral of that story for me: just because your president, sergeants, and generals tell you that you're doing a fine and proper thing, don't expect the folks at home to necessarily agree with that... to say nothing of what God might agree with.

TwitchKitty · #82 07-14-2006, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Now here is a serious question, give it some thought.

It is a seriously flawed question, give that some thought.

Make the the distinction between your country and your government. The government in this country was meant to derive its power from the people and not the other way around. People today don't even know who the enemy is, how would they know who to fight?

t walgamuth · #83 07-14-2006, 04:11 AM

they dont. so they trusted w when he said iraq. we must fight iraq.

but even the average joe on the street now sees that it makes no sense. but ooops! it is a lot easier to start a war than to get out of one gracefully.

kerry might have won if he said like richard nixon did about vietnam " i have a plan to get us out, but i can t talk about it. it is a military secret". nixon may have been (what am i saying may for?) a crook, but he was one of the most astute political strategists ever. no morals unfortunately.

tom w

Hatterasguy · #84 07-14-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwitchKitty

It is a seriously flawed question, give that some thought.

Make the the distinction between your country and your government. The government in this country was meant to derive its power from the people and not the other way around. People today don't even know who the enemy is, how would they know who to fight?

The government and the USA are for now one in the same. Our government isn't perfect, none are but are system is the best in the world.

Botnst · #85 07-14-2006, 11:24 PM

A note on the psychology of the military. They volunteered, have all of these toys and all of this training and they are beyond primed to go. They will be the last people who want us out of Iraq. The few soldiers who question the political wisdom of the adventure (what I prefer to call, "cowards") are a negligible minority and always will be. Recall the French Foreign Legion as an argument. They were the LAST people who wanted to leave both Vietnam and Algeria. An effective fighting force will never abandon the field.

Under that circumstance it is a political, not a military decision. And that is yet another reason why the civilians, and not the military is the final authority. If we have a change in government and that change decides to retreat from Iraq, then that is what the military will do. As in Vietnam.

In tension against that political course is the military itself. take note of the general low esteem that the present military and the majority of veterans hold for the opposition party. The military, present and former, vote in a far higher percentage than the general population.

There are obvious opposition members who are counter to the general veteran and military political sensibilities. I'm thinking of George McGovern and Daniel Inoue in particular. But they are the honorable exception, not the general rule.

B

cscmc1 · #86 07-15-2006, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

A note on the psychology of the military. They volunteered, have all of these toys and all of this training and they are beyond primed to go. They will be the last people who want us out of Iraq. The few soldiers who question the political wisdom of the adventure (what I prefer to call, "cowards") are a negligible minority and always will be. Recall the French Foreign Legion as an argument. They were the LAST people who wanted to leave both Vietnam and Algeria. An effective fighting force will never abandon the field.

Under that circumstance it is a political, not a military decision. And that is yet another reason why the civilians, and not the military is the final authority. If we have a change in government and that change decides to retreat from Iraq, then that is what the military will do. As in Vietnam.

In tension against that political course is the military itself. take note of the general low esteem that the present military and the majority of veterans hold for the opposition party. The military, present and former, vote in a far higher percentage than the general population.

There are obvious opposition members who are counter to the general veteran and military political sensibilities. I'm thinking of George McGovern and Daniel Inoue in particular. But they are the honorable exception, not the general rule.

B

Sounds about right to me.

You deserve a major award:

Maroon 300D · #87 07-15-2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cscmc1

Sounds about right to me.

You deserve a major award:

That lamp...that's Italian, isn't it?

Botnst · #88 07-15-2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maroon 300D

That lamp...that's Italian, isn't it?

"Fragile", right?

B

TwitchKitty · #89 07-15-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The government and the USA are for now one in the same.

Spoken like a true slave.

When you say this you spit in the faces of all of the real men throughout history who have died to make you "free".

#90 07-15-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

well said.

i sure am too chicken to be a cop or fireman. i am sure glad there are folks who are willing to do it for all of us.

tom w

I am saying this with respect so don't take this the wrong way, you are a much bigger man than the chickens who won't admit this.

There is nothing wrong with staying out of the fight as long as you keep your trap shut and respect the people who do.