I totally agree with this. If we were to try and eliminate all the religions and philosophies in the world that want to eliminate all other religions and philosophies, we'd never have time to take a break from the killing.

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Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...

Yes, islamofascist apologists, not pro-palestinians.




THE PALESTINIANS LOSE (AGAIN)

By AMIR TAHERI

August 23, 2006 -- WHILE Iran and Hezbollah celebrate their "strategic divine victory," the real losers of the Lebanon war may be the Palestinians.

The narrative woven by Iran and Hezbollah around the Lebanon war is designed to achieve three goals:

* To turn Palestine from a political issue into a messianic cause. This means that Palestine is no longer about such issues as statehood, boundaries, security and diplomatic recognition. The redefined Palestinian cause is about "wiping the Jewish stain of shame" off the map as a prelude to driving the United States and its allies out of the Middle East.

* To make the redefined Palestinian cause into a small part of a much bigger cause: challenging the global domination of the "infidel" led by the United States, and creating an Islamic world order.

* To transfer control of the Palestinian cause to "the Ummah." This means that no Palestinian leadership, not even Hamas, has the right to make a deal with Israel without the consent of whoever happens to lead the Ummah at any given time. (Currently, Iran and Hezbollah claim leadership.)

If this narrative succeeds, the achievements of three decades of diplomacy, which culminated in almost universal consensus over a two-state solution, could be in jeopardy.

The Islamic Republic has always opposed the two-state solution. It proposes a "one-state" solution that envisages the reunification of the whole of Palestine as put under the United Nations mandate after World War II, and the return of all Palestinian refugees. In such a "greater Palestine," Jews would become a minority in a majority Arab state. The hope is that most Jews would then emigrate rather than live under Arab-Islamic rule.

The one-state solution was backed by all Arab states, and a majority of Muslim countries, until 1979, when Egypt made peace with Israel. Egypt was soon followed by Jordan and, from 1984 onward, by other Arab states which, while not extending formal recognition to Israel, no longer called for its destruction. In 1994, the Palestine Liberation Organization, led by Yasser Arafat, endorsed the "two state" formula.

Thus, by the mid-1990s, for a majority of Arabs and Muslims, Palestine was no longer a cause but a political issue to be resolved through negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians. The only Arab country to continue to defend the "one state" policy was Libya.

Some Palestinian radicals may be happy that the "two state" formula is challenged by Iran and its allies, including Syria, Hezbollah and parts of the Hamas leadership. Yet the truth is that, whenever Palestine became a cause exploited by others for ulterior motives, Palestinians ended up as losers.

In 1948, the Arab League turned Palestine into a cause and prevented its solution as a political problem. It rejected the partition proposed by the United Nations and provoked a war, which it lost. It then did everything to prevent the settlement of the refugees. The Second World War produced more than 50 million refugees across the globe; by the mid-1950s, all had been resettled. Meanwhile, the Arab League insisted on maintaining 450,000 Palestinians in camps as the living symbol of its "cause."

After the 1952 coup d'etat in Egypt, it was the turn of Pan-Arab nationalists to seize control of the Palestinian "cause." The late Gamal Abdel Nasser opposed the creation of a Palestinian state in any part of the former U.N. mandate territory: His pan-Arab ideology was aimed at creating a single state to encompass all Arabs, not at adding yet another mini-state.

Nasser's views were rooted in the Arab psyche. Unlike nation-states in Europe and elsewhere (including Iran and Turkey), the 21 Arab states are not named after any ethnic community or nation. The names of Arab states are geographic terms, often preceding the appearance of Arabs in history. (Even Morocco, which in Western languages means "The Land of The Moor," becomes al Maghrib - "the West" - in Arabic.) The ultimate goal of pan-Arabists is to unite all those geographical bits and pieces into a single state. Thus, the idea of a narrow Palestinian nationalism was abhorrent.

The same is now true of pan-Islamists. They dream of a universal Islamic state, either under Iranian Shiite leadership (as with Hezbollah), or under the leadership of Salafi movements. In their vision, there can be no distinct Palestinian identity, let alone Palestinian nationalism.

Muhammad Khatami, the mullah who was president of the Islamic Republic, has dismissed nationalism as an illegitimate child of the European Enlightenment which led to colonialism, imperialism and world wars. In this view, the idea of a nation-state of Palestine is a Western concoction, alien to Islam. Even the "one state" formula (the fusion of Israel and Palestine) is only an intermediate step. Such a state would eventually be absorbed into the single universal Islamic domain.

The Palestinians, including Hamas leaders, need to do some hard thinking. Do they want their problem to be transformed into a messianic cause again, and geared to larger strategies in the shaping of which they have no part?

As a problem, Palestine could be resolved through political, diplomatic and economic means. The Palestinians could live with that problem while a solution is shaped. As a cause, however, Palestine could be an excuse for the "clash of civilizations" imagined by radicals both in the West and in the Muslim world, and the trigger for endless violence and war.

The Palestinian must insist that, while Iran has the right to pursue its strategies, it has no right to annex Palestine as part of a "bigger cause."

What the Palestinians urgently need is a state of their own based on their national identity. They do not want to destroy Israel, let alone "pull down the American empire," as Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promises. They do not want to die so that others can play heroics on TV and in their name.

Israeli Premier Ehud Olmert is wrong in putting Ariel Sharon's policy of unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank on hold. For the two-state formula to work, it is imperative for Israel to decide exactly where it wants its frontiers to be drawn. Once it is clear where Israel wants to be, it would be possible to discuss where Palestine could be as a state.

One of Iran's goals in the Lebanon war was to undermine the two-state formula and advance its one-state alternative. By freezing the two-state formula, Olmert may be playing into Ahmadinejad's hands.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I wonder if Olmert even has the political clout to lead a unilateral withdrawal anymore. I've been reading that Israelis are very unhappy with the way the Lebanese war turned out.

And seeing as how the head of the Labor Party is the cabinet member in charge of defense, I would guess that BB Netanyahu's stock is on the rise.

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Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...

I think the war last month will effectivly put the kibosh on the two state solution. No Israeli in thier right mind will want to be giving any land back to folks who will use it to kill them, and rightly so.

Of course, I'm counting the hours until someone points out that this is also Israel's fault. It's ironic how much of the opinion we've seen here and elsewhere regarding the latest conflict was couched as pro-palestinian yet was in reality nothing but islamo-fascist apologetics at the expense of Israel, the US and Palestine.

Palestine - screwed by the Arabs yet again. And will continue to be done so. Iran and Syria will defend themselves to the last Lebanese body...

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Don't they sometime say that dumping TNT on a fire is bad but they do use it for blowing out fires that are very difficult to control with conventional means.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
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05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
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As I have said to many others that whine about how bad we are compared to others when we screw around with other people's lives. Leave this armpit of the world and go somewhere else where it is better. I did. Why can't they? Unless that better part doesn't want them. That is a 2 pronged statement. The first part is pretty evident. If that place is better, go to it. I thought the USA was better than what I left behind. I went to the better side of the road. NOW FOR THE SECOND PART. Go to what you consider the better side of the road. Stay there for any length of time and you will see some of the dirty underhanded tricks they too pull. Fact is it happens all over the world. Europe also pulls the same crap in some way or the other. It happens in Developed countries as well as 3rd world countries. Fact it, it is "par for the course". My gripe is why is it when others do it, we gloss over it. When the USA does it, it is a cardinal sin. Why? Isn't sauce for the goose sauce for the gander?

May not make things right either way but again, it is par for the course. Play on. Everyone has a reason for doing or not doing something. You think Russia, France and Germany didn't want in on this war because they believed or disbelieved Bush? They did what they did because they calculated that this was not profitable for them. Without Hussien in power, contracts with France and Germany would be null and void. What about the money that Hussien owes Russia? See above. Did you remember reading an article about how those same countries were griping that the US gives rebuilding contracts first to itself and it's allies in the conflict? Why? Why would they be interested in getting a piece of some immoral action?

Answer is that nobody is in it for the morality or the right and wrong. Right and wrong are coincidently 5 letter words that mean nothing when you are talking about this sort of thing. Look at what Mercmad6.3 is mad about. His govt "believed" Bush and diverted 800 mil or whatever figure from his fav program to support the war with troops. You think their PM cared a whit one way or the other? Nope. His PM only figured that it was more profitable in the long run for them to be involved even if it was a token force than to stay out and so the Australian involvement. It is all about an investment. Bottom line is that it is about their own self benifit.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Sorry to disappont people but I don't believe in being Hitler II. I don't believe that we should kill you because you are moslem. I believe I should kill a person if they are trying to kill me or if they are helping those that are trying to kill me. Other than that, I could care less if you or anyone barked at the moon every night. I may think it is rediculous but if that is what you believe, so be it. It's like gay people. They can do what they want as long as they don't insist I join in the festivities.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Actually, it is Bush's fault because (insert reason here. need not be reasonable or logical)

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04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

What I've come to expect from my buddy TimFreeh (spirit). Some kind of put down shot, no discussion of any point -- I'm just some idiot from Berkeley, why bother?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

If my aging mother weren't still alive and I the only son, I might consider checking out New Zealand or Chile. But she is and my leaving is out of the question.

Wouldn't change much if I did. I agree that in many ways this is among the most civilized nations on earth. I'm grateful for that. Part of why I speak up. Complacency and smugness can erode that which makes us strong and just.

This business of skeweing the Europeans and the UN for 'oil for food' excesses is past tired. Speck in one's neighbor's eye and a 2x4 in one's own and all that. We just upended much of the whole damn country and are in the process of building 14 or 15 permanent bases in order, primarily, to ensure that Iraqi oil flows to us or whoever we want it to flow to and the same crowd who cheered that development whine that the Europeans were cheating on oil for food.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Many of our problems today are of our own making. Transferring blame to other nations or encouraging dissenters to love it or leave it won't change that.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

How long ya'all going to ride that train?

Bush and team have effectively strengthened executive power more than most thought possible. They've embarked on bold (if foolish) new policies despite the misgivings of many allies and administration members.

The carnage in Lebanon is clearly not Bush's fault.

But, can't have it both ways. If things go well, his supporters will tell it from the steeples, bit if they go bad, it's all "so it's Bush's fault, huh?"

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

That line too is a tired old saw with no teeth. There is often more than one choice in any matter. However, it is a falacy to believe that there is one choice with no cost. Look at unplanned pregnancies. 3 simple choices. Abortion, adoption or keeping the child. Pick any choice and you will have problems and strengths. You cannot tell me that you can abort, keep or adopt and things will be just fine. Each of them comes with a plus AND a minus. Now, think of a situation as complex as what we are dealing with and see if it is that simple.

No, I am not transfering blame on anyone. You can dissent all you want. I don't agree with Bush on all his issues. Some yes, some no. My issue is with people who think the other place out there is so good and we are so bad and why aren't we more like them. To which, I encourage them to leave to their better place. If they find happiness there, good for them. Why stay in a place that makes you miserable and longing for someother heaven? I don't understand. I have been wanting to leave Singapore since the 80s. Did Singapore have things better than we do here, IMO? A few. Overall, I felt I would be happier here so I moved. So far, I haven't regretted it yet. Could something happen tomorrow that makes me regret it? Yes. Is USA perfect? Not at all. Better? Yes. To be sure, we have our own problems I didn't see before. In any case, why is encouraging them to leave an issue? If they find happiness somewhere else, good for them and I mean that sincerely. If they find that that over place that they thought was heaven had feet of clay too, well, that too is a learning experience that things are not always what they seem from afar.

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99 E300 Turbodiesel
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It is the Leabaneses' fault. Imagine if Bush or any Prez of your choice had a couple of child molesters in their cabinet. Pardoned, of course. How would you feel? They have Hezbollah in the cabinet. What else does Hezbollah control? Since it is democratic, I can assume that either the people there support Hezbollah and as I have said before, you take the good with the bad and STFU or they are too stupid AND ignorant to know what Hezbollah stands for. Kinda makes me think of Ebay. You bid and won something and now you grumble that the price is high? WTF? You know that they were terrorsists and what they stand for and are firing rockets into Isreal and doing all sorts of kidnapping and yet you welcome them and what they bring in. Now there is retaliation and you grumble that your house is destroyed and your so and so killed? Too bad. I don't sympathise with you. As you are so fond of saying, "Ye reap what ye sow". Maybe in Australia, things are different as Madmerc6.3 seems to allude to. You house a known criminal and come home one day to find that the police have raided the house and your place is shot up like swiss cheese. Who do you blame? The police? To him I would say "Go look in the bathroom mirror and you will see the person to blame."

Don't think so. Look at what Shakespear said hundreds of years ago.

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar.

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And later Antony reflects on the inconsistency of Caesar's former admirers.

But I am here to say what I do know.
You all loved him once, for good reasons.

What reason keeps you from mourning for him, then?
O judgment, you have run away to dumb animals,
And men have lost their intelligence!

Amen to that.