Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Discussions > Off-Topic Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-22-2006, 08:39 PM
Botnst's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: There castle.
Posts: 44,587
Gratitude

Thank Who Very Much?

Ronald Aronson

Living without God today means facing life and death as no generation before us has done. It entails giving meaning to our lives not only in the absence of a supreme being, but now without the forces and trends that gave hope to the past several generations of secularists. We who live after progress, after Marxism, and after the Holocaust have stopped believing that the world is being transformed by reason and democracy. By the beginning of the twenty-first century, the modern faith that human life is heading in a positive direction has been undone, giving way to the earlier religious faith it replaced, or to no faith at all. Alone as never before, in a universe scientifically better understood than ever, we find little in its almost-infinite vastness to guide us towards what our lives mean and how we should live them.

To answer these questions anew, agnostics, atheists and secularists must absorb the experience of the twentieth century and the issues of the twenty-first. We must face today's concerns about forces beyond our control and our own responsibility, shape a satisfying way of living in relation to what we can know and what we cannot know, affirm a secular basis for morality even while, especially in the United States, religion is being trumpeted as essential to living ethically, formulate new ways of coming to terms with death, and explore what hope can mean after the collapse of Enlightenment anticipations.

The first step of such a project concerns paradoxically, the issue of giving thanks. Gratitude, central to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is virtually absent from our secular culture, except in relation to the “oughts” of individual interactions. But this deprives living without God of much of its coherence and meaning. My thesis is that there is much to be grateful for. Exploring this feeling and idea, so little noticed from a secular point of view, opens a new way of experiencing our relationship with forces and beings beyond our individual selves.

Hiking through a nearby woods on a late summer day recently, I followed the turning path and suddenly saw a pristine lake, then walked down a hill to its edge as birds chirped and darted about, stopping at a clearing to register the warmth of the sun against my face. Feelings welled up: physical pleasure, delight in the sounds and sights, gladness to be out here on this day. But something else as well, curious and less distinct, a vague feeling more like gratitude than anything else but not towards any being or person I could recognise. Only half-formed, this feeling didn't fit into any easily discernable category, evading my usual lenses and language of perception.

The one immediately available way of experiencing my incipient feeling begins with thanking God. For many, religion provides a ready stock of lenses and language to identify such experiences, because much of religion is about gratitude. Orthodox Jews, for example, thank God dozens of times a day, both in formal prayer and in common expressions: for the sunrise, for waking up alive, for food and drink, for going and coming safely, for every pleasure great and small, for health, for completing the day's activities, for nightfall, for sleep.

This way of relating to our lives and world has undeniable power. Thanking God out here on the trail would tie together everything I see and experience, it would direct me towards its source, and would give me a personal relationship with that being. It would, moreover, unite my feeling of pleasure with my understanding and fill me with a sense of gratitude that points towards my life's meaning and its purpose.

But living without a supernatural being seems to rule out such feelings of gratitude. In a godless universe, wasn't Camus right to begin The Myth of Sisyphus under the silence, emptiness, and absurdity of a universe without God? He demanded that we confront our utter aloneness in a world where there is no divine being to pray to, to be guided by, to confide in, to seek consolation from, to be judged by, or to place our hopes in. In this disenchanted world, we are on our own, for better and for worse, even if, in the words of molecular biologist Robert Pollack, we become no “more than numbers in a cosmic lottery with no paymaster.”

Perhaps Camus tolerated the emptiness only because, like Meursault in The Stranger , he could stretch out on the beach and feel the sun's heat on his body. Camus's writing brings these experiences of nature home with a power equal to his descriptions of absurdity. Warmed by the sun, feeling no intention and no being behind it, seems to leave us with momentary pleasure but no basis for a feeling of gratitude. After all, how can we be grateful to what has no mind and no will, say, the sun itself?

Aside from our holy books, writings on gratitude are few and far between in Western society. A few scattered writers have clarified it over the years – Seneca, Hobbes, Adam Smith, Simmel – mostly by focusing on person-to-person encounters with gift-givers and benefactors, perhaps generalising a bit from these to society as a whole. In the words of Robert Emmons and Cheryl Crumpler in the Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology , gratitude is “profoundly interpersonal”, focusing us on “the intentions of the benefactor”. And so, discerning no intention behind the sun, the trail, and the lake, perhaps my quasi-feeling deserves to stay mute, a vestige of what Julian Baggini, drawing on Freud's analysis of religion, aptly calls the time before “we cast off the innocence of supernatural world views.” Once we have given up projecting “benevolent parents who will look after us” to the world writ large, perhaps we should also stop anthropomorphising natural processes. Accordingly, in keeping with Baggini's notion of humans growing up, aren't the kinds of gratitude so central to religion inessential to secular culture?

More at: http://www.philosophersnet.com/magazine/article.php?id=1009

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-22-2006, 09:18 PM
Zeitgeist's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 2,304
Praise the lowered for allowing me to finally give up his/her/its eminently irrational, yet vestigial hold on my psyche. Catholics on the other hand, seem to have signed some kind of unbreakable contract with the chief apparition and guilt distributor. I pity the poor fools.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-22-2006, 09:41 PM
Zeitgeist's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 2,304
I'm waiting

None that I know of...though, I'm open to empirically provable evidence to the contrary.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-22-2006, 10:06 PM
Botnst's Avatar
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: There castle.
Posts: 44,587
And be grateful for that.

B
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:21 AM
Patriotic Scoundrel
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Posts: 1,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
And be grateful for that.

B
Amen.

I must be unique. I don't have the guilt presupposed by Z for Catholics yet I believe similar (I would bet big bucks) to Surf. Or maybe that guilt thing is just a stereotype?
__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:22 AM
Patriotic Scoundrel
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Posts: 1,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-n-Turf View Post
Hey B Quitting smoking is a Bear. I think I went through less emotional ups and downs when I shook Cocaine back in the late '80s.
Ever read that short story by Stephen King, called Quitters, Inc., I believe?
__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-23-2006, 11:55 AM
Cabernet red, actually
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by peragro View Post
Amen.

I must be unique. I don't have the guilt presupposed by Z for Catholics yet I believe similar (I would bet big bucks) to Surf. Or maybe that guilt thing is just a stereotype?
I was raised Catholic and I would say it's more than a stereotype. It's more of a fear thing, really. There's just something about told from birth that you will be damned to hell for eternity if you're not a good boy.

I believe in God but have serious doubts as to whether any one person's or group's version is really the way it is.
__________________
Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:09 PM
Mistress's Avatar
No crying in baseball
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside a vortex
Posts: 626
the opposing thumb is way over rated...
__________________
"It's normal for these things to empty your wallet and break your heart in the process."
2012 SLK 350
1987 420 SEL
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-23-2006, 12:54 PM
riethoven's Avatar
Conservative Radical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Eastern Long Island
Posts: 943
It is all a crock

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 300D View Post
I was raised Catholic and I would say it's more than a stereotype. It's more of a fear thing, really. There's just something about told from birth that you will be damned to hell for eternity if you're not a good boy.

I believe in God but have serious doubts as to whether any one person's or group's version is really the way it is.
I too was raised Catholic and even sing every Sunday at Mass. But lately my faith is waning. I still have gratitude for many things in my life, but never really thank "God" for them. More and more lately I think that every person controls their own destiny by their own actions. Obviously there are many outside influences that also determine our destiny, but I don't think that any of them are divine.

I am grateful for the simple things, and for all the things that I have been able to determine the outcome on. If there is a supreme being, I doubt he is rooted in any Catholic (Christian) Jewish or Moslem religion. Look at what these three religions have done to the world. It just seems like a reason to fight.
__________________
Doug

1987 300TD x 3
2005 E320CDI
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:00 PM
Cabernet red, actually
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 503
I've been thinking lately that 'God' is kind of like a computer program. Things happen the way they do because they are programmed to happen that way. I'm talking about laws of science here, not free will.

If you could change the program perhaps life would be more like a David Lynch movie.
__________________
Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:17 PM
Mistress's Avatar
No crying in baseball
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Inside a vortex
Posts: 626
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 300D View Post
I've been thinking lately that 'God' is kind of like a computer program. Things happen the way they do because they are programmed to happen that way. I'm talking about laws of science here, not free will.

If you could change the program perhaps life would be more like a David Lynch movie.
Maroon- Would that be a PC or MAC?
__________________
"It's normal for these things to empty your wallet and break your heart in the process."
2012 SLK 350
1987 420 SEL
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-23-2006, 01:22 PM
Cabernet red, actually
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Willamette Valley, OR
Posts: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siduri19 View Post
Maroon- Would that be a PC or MAC?
Must be a Mac, as more people would be hacking into 'the system' otherwise.
__________________
Ralph

1985 300D Turbo, CA model
248,650 miles and counting...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-23-2006, 02:08 PM
riethoven's Avatar
Conservative Radical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Eastern Long Island
Posts: 943
I love that fire and brimstone stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-n-Turf View Post
Raised Methodist myself, but I seem to remember being taught that God gave us free will ( not to be confused with that friendly Orca ) to decide our own path and destiny. He just shows us 1 way. We have many to freely choose from. And if you choose wrong you will burn in Hell for eternity.
:fork_off: :fork_off:
Keep the faith! We can't even get current events reported correctly. How about stuff that happened thousands of years ago. What are the chances that any of the bible is really true? If there is a God why is he letting so much bad happen on the Earth? The people affected are the poor and unfortunate, not the wealthy and powerful. How is that just? Anyway, by historical standards we are all going to hell because we have not dedicated our lives to God.

And how about the 10 commandments? Remember "Thou shall not kill"? But it is OK to kill if your country has WMDs? What about "turn the other cheek". It is really a cunundrum when people say they are Christians, but kill people, and if they are wronged they just want revenge. This is not a solution to end the hostility.

Speaking of burning in hell I figure in Zephyrhills on a hot summer day, you are already pretty close to hell type weather.
__________________
Doug

1987 300TD x 3
2005 E320CDI
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-23-2006, 02:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: DFW / Collin County Texas
Posts: 1,882
Nearly anyone who stumbles across a well-engineered MB would deduce that somebody designed and built it. To say otherwise would be a denial of outright fact. However, a simple cell, which is far more complex, more efficient, and CANNOT be created in a controlled laboratory environment despite scientific advances, somehow evolved by accident?

Humans appreciate art and feel love, and may live and/or die for such. However, neither of these things is required for survival of the fittest.

Calling oneself a Christian does not make it so.

Just because there are hundreds of opinions out there doesn't mean they are all right.
__________________
08 W251 R350
97 W210 E320
91 W124 300E
86 W126 560SEL
85 W126 380SE Silver
85 W126 380SE Cranberry
79 W123 250
78 W123 280E
75 W114 280
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-23-2006, 03:14 PM
Patriotic Scoundrel
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
Posts: 1,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by riethoven View Post
Keep the faith! We can't even get current events reported correctly. How about stuff that happened thousands of years ago. What are the chances that any of the bible is really true? If there is a God why is he letting so much bad happen on the Earth? The people affected are the poor and unfortunate, not the wealthy and powerful. How is that just? Anyway, by historical standards we are all going to hell because we have not dedicated our lives to God.

And how about the 10 commandments? Remember "Thou shall not kill"? But it is OK to kill if your country has WMDs? What about "turn the other cheek". It is really a cunundrum when people say they are Christians, but kill people, and if they are wronged they just want revenge. This is not a solution to end the hostility.

Speaking of burning in hell I figure in Zephyrhills on a hot summer day, you are already pretty close to hell type weather.
Have you never read the Just War Doctrine or St Augustine or St Aquinas on the subject? Whatsmore, Jesus was not a complete pacifist.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2026 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page