this is not right - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TheDon · #16 08-26-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Oh man, that's a tough one, Don. Have you anybody that you can talk to about it?

B

emotionally. im fine... but on the legal stand.. im pretty pissed off... id like a review of procedures, police fired, pensions denied, demonstrations calling for more peacful solutions.. this happens everyday... people die in the hands of the police which could have been prevented if the police had used the "less than lethal" methods our goverment wastes money on..

TheDon · #17 08-26-2006, 10:49 AM

ok put yourself in the shoes of one of the cops

which of thse would you use to take her down

a)gun
b)stun gun(type that fires the wires or w/e)
c)pepper spray
d)bean bag round

look at that list.. apparently we have other means of disarming someone today than we did before.. these cops had options.. and i gurantee you at least one of the cops had that stun gun on hand..

sfloriII · #18 08-26-2006, 01:07 PM

Sorry for your loss, Don.

It's sad to see a troubled tean, and to learn that many of her problems may have been caused or exacerbated by a parent. That's really sad. I wish she had been able to live with good friends or to have had someone to talk to as an outlet of somekind.

On another note, I have a few friends on the force. They're perfectly honorable cops, as most are. It's like the priest scandal in the Church-- a very few bad apples ruin the reputation of all the rest.

t walgamuth · #19 08-26-2006, 03:20 PM

it sure looks bad.

very very sorry, don.

i cannot imagine what they were thinking.

even one shot would be very tough to justify.

five? absolutely unsupportable based on the facts you have presented.

if it is as it appears, her family will be in the end well compensated.

although most cops are fine honorable folks, the whole authority thing unfortunately attracts a few folks that definately should not be carrying lethal weapons.

tom w

#20 08-26-2006, 03:43 PM

I feel for you Don. That sucks... What happend to all that "less than lethal" technology cops have been praising?

If I had any spare cash, I'd help out for a plane ticket.

TheDon · #21 08-26-2006, 06:24 PM

no worries forced... thanks though.. thanks all.. i shall keep you all updated on what is going on...

300EVIL · #22 08-26-2006, 07:44 PM

An act of cowards to say the least... Given that the "knife" was less than 12 inches long, I would take a bet that I could disarm any male or female with pepper spray and (or) a baton. I think "shoot to kill" is also BS. You could take a leg or an arm and disable an attacker. I hope those cops get the book thrown at them. Sorry to here about your loss..
Adam

BrierS · #23 08-26-2006, 08:05 PM

As with the others before me, I am sorry to read of the tragedy. Reading what you identified as the options the officers could have used also hit a chord. Having family that are police officers, I have bitten my tongue more than once when the subjects of the use of deadly force and the department's need for tasers (sp) comes up. I believe for some, it becomes too engrained using the former rather than the later. I have listened more times than I have wanted to how they are trained to use deadly force when threatened with just about any weapon, even from a distance that seems adequate to take other measures. The two tap method of shooting also seems too definite. As one fellow forum member wrote, one would think these situations would warrant a more practical selection process.

aklim · #24 08-26-2006, 08:05 PM

Lets see. She slashed her mother and if I were a cop, you want me to try what? I have an idea. Why don't YOU try being a cop and wondering what you should do when the situation arises. Yes, a lot of them are jerks. However, in this case, your cousin went over the line with a knife. If she had come at me with a knife, I'd have shot her with a couple of 45 rounds and called it a day too. I can't expect more of them. Cops are not there to get cut up like meat. Yes, we are talking of a 120# teenager. I am 200# but I have had my butt kicked by a 100# girl. You never know what is going on in that person's head. How do I know she is not hopped up on something? They had ordered her to drop the knife and she refused. The question to those who think it is excessive force. Would YOU tackle someone in that state. I wouldn't. If you came into my house with a knife, should I play 20 questions or just put 2 in the head? I'd go for the latter and ask questions later. When it is my ass or yours, it is my ass. Now, if in tackling that delinquent an officer gets killed, what then? You absolutely sure that because you are 120# and there are 5 of us 200# people we are invincible and won't get killed? You going to gaurantee that?

aklim · #25 08-26-2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

An act of cowards to say the least... Given that the "knife" was less than 12 inches long, I would take a bet that I could disarm any male or female with pepper spray and (or) a baton. I think "shoot to kill" is also BS. You could take a leg or an arm and disable an attacker. I hope those cops get the book thrown at them. Sorry to here about your loss..
Adam

I don't are for cops myself. However maybe this will instruct others that coming at a cop with a deadly weapon is not the action of someone who wants to live.

About your bet. Are you talking of doing it with or without injuries to self? If you are so confident, the police force is looking for a few good people who can do what you describe. I never met anyone that sure of themselves and their skills. It takes less than a 2 inch knife to sever your jugular

TheDon · #26 08-26-2006, 08:21 PM

aklim.. in that situation if i had a taser on hand i would have used it... their is no reason to take someones like that can be helped like she could have been.... she was no excon with a record 10 miles long.. if all i had was my sidearm i would shoot the ground near her feet to let reality set in... and if neccessary a two tap.. but not a direct shot to the upper body..

aklim · #27 08-26-2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrierS

As with the others before me, I am sorry to read of the tragedy. Reading what you identified as the options the officers could have used also hit a chord. Having family that are police officers, I have bitten my tongue more than once when the subjects of the use of deadly force and the department's need for tasers (sp) comes up. I believe for some, it becomes too engrained using the former rather than the later. I have listened more times than I have wanted to how they are trained to use deadly force when threatened with just about any weapon, even from a distance that seems adequate to take other measures. The two tap method of shooting also seems too definite. As one fellow forum member wrote, one would think these situations would warrant a more practical selection process.

Remember Rodney King? Tasers didn't work did they? Everyone seems to think that tasers are magic and that by using them life is good.

TheDon · #28 08-26-2006, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Remember Rodney King? Tasers didn't work did they? Everyone seems to think that tasers are magic and that by using them life is good.

he was a threat... ashely macdonald was not

aklim · #29 08-26-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

aklim.. in that situation if i had a taser on hand i would have used it... their is no reason to take someones like that can be helped like she could have been.... she was no excon with a record 10 miles long.. if all i had was my sidearm i would shoot the ground near her feet to let reality set in... and if neccessary a two tap.. but not a direct shot to the upper body..

I don't know. Shot to the ground seems to work well in cowboy movies. I used to shoot tin cans on the ground myself. One day, my gf stopped me and said my face was bleeding. Seems there was a ricochet or something and I took a hit a half inch under the eye and on the side of my nose. Today, I only shoot into a target if it is backed by something. Not in the ground since you never know how it will react after you hit the ground.

Yes, a lower body shot is not a bad idea. However, I would only shoot to the upper body since I KNOW I can hit that target easier than a head shot or leg shot. IF I won't take that risk, like a cop or not, can I demand that they take the risk? If someone broke into my house, head should would be best. However, I cannot be as sure to hit the head in a situation where things are not that calm. At a target range, we have all day to take the shot. That is why I have a laser sight to help me. At the range, I can shoot the head of a target consistantly at 20 feet. However, I practice for the body shot. I have tried having a gun on the table and at the sound of a buzzer pick it up and shoot as fast as I can. Under those circumstances, I can't hit the head more than 1 in 3. Make that a moving target and the odds will drop. The problem is that trying to make that shot may endanger others in the process.

Problem with making a shot is that you need to be sure of what is behind that shot. If it goes thru, what then? It might hit somebody else. It is a difficult situation. There are tough choices to make. Each choice will do this but might cost you that. If they shot at the leg and missed and someone else got hurt, what then? Body shot is the only one which is the easiest to hit and surest to contain the bullet. If you shoot the leg and don't get it right, it might go thru and hit something else. I have the luxury of shooting at the range where the bullet goes thru paper and hits an embankment designed for it or a steel plate. There are no such gaurantees on the street.

Yes, it sucks that it is your cousin but I personally don't feel they do that sorta thing to rack up kills on their gun.

aklim · #30 08-26-2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

he was a threat... ashely macdonald was not

"They repeatedly asked her to drop the knife," Sheriff's Department spokesman Jim Amormino said. "She lunged toward the officers and that's when they shot at her."

That may be or may not be. However, the point is that taser is not magic and will not always bring somebody down. When someone is waving a knife in front of me, it is hard to sit and play 20 questions to decide whether that person is going to be a druggie with a long record, an attention whore or just somebody like your cousin. In that situation, you are asking me to instantly make a decision. My first instinct is to protect my ass then my fellow officers. This is assuming it took place in a deserted area where nobody is around to catch a ricochet or missed round.

But let me ask you this. If you were in a house, minding your own business and some clown was there with a knife. Lets say they aimed for the leg or arm and either missed or the bullet went thru. Lets also say that this bullet struck your child or wife or you. What would you say then? Would you still say the cop shouldn't have gone for a body shot? If they had aimed for the arm or leg or ground as you suggested, I'd have sued everyone involved if my loved one got hit because they were trying to preserve the life of somebody wielding a knife and as a result, it hit my so and so. Now, if they had taken the knifer down and a round accidently discharged and hit someone. Well, I suppose them are the breaks and I would forget about it.

Try it sometime. Put a man sized target at 20 feet and have your buddy behind you shout out a part of that target. You have to instantly shoot at that part. No aiming or thinking. He says "Leg" and you must shoot the middle of the leg. If you don't think that is a challenge, try it with a moving target. I have shot an M16 at moving targets that were moving in a predictable direction and I can attest that it is NOT THAT EASY. Now, lets make it move erratically and see how many shots you can score with. If I hit 1 in 10, I am doing good.