China is retaliating for our gov threating tighter restrictions on imports, personally I say F-em we should not have put all of our eggs in ANY single country in the first place. I was pissed when Bush let them off the hook for capturing our spy plane in international air space.

There was no other way to get that plane back other than kiss their ass and use the ruskies as intermediaries--it was doomed to land in China.

I say buck em too though--locally, the problem seems to be domestic housing market. I can not believe the homes that have been on the market for over a year here. It has to blow up soon.

You may have tended for this post to be positive, but to maybe shed some light as to why you get ceretain reactions: it is very condescending from my perspective, insinuating that someone has just woken up and seen what you must have known for years. Both you and howi's posts are opinions (good ones imo) and neither expresses any omniscient 100% factual certanties. I only mention this, because instead of just saying you agree when someone else agrees with you, you seem to always have to say, wow, he must have had an epiphany and is now smart like me!!

Flame suit not necessary--I won't be around much today, and everybody have a good one!

As I read this thread, I'm wondering at what point does the debtor gain the upper hand in this equation? At some point the power passes from the lender to the debtor if the lender is not careful.

Anybody care to speculate where that point is?

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" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
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That wasn't my intent at all, and if it was perceived as such, I apologize. I was trying to say that I wasn't aware that Howi had these beliefs. I have had the perception that Howi is very pro-status-quo and likes things the way they are.

The fact that he stands up against policy is why I was surprised.

That's all -- no harm meant.

Correct but the currant communist government wants to stay in power, and if they trash the economy look out...revolution!

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

Yeah. How badly does the lender need to lend and how badly does the borrower need to borrow.

Hattie - - - currant is a fruit.

You mean current.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

Correct!

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I don't think they're worried about revolution. A comparatively small portion of their population is enjoying the benefits of the open economy. Most of the rest are still on farms, poorly educated, only learning about what is happening in the rest of the country based on what the state-run media tells them. If the seeds of revolution broke out, they would be immediately put under heel by the government. They don't have any qualms about turning the military loose on the people. And it would all happen with much of the population in blissful ignorance of the fact. The people are largely oriented towards doing what the government tells them. It is a relatively docile population. In order to understand China you have to view the world through their lens, not ours. The people don't feel free or empowered. If they have stuff, its because the government lets them have stuff, and they're thankful for it and wont put it at risk with actions.

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Jonathan

2011 Mazda2
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1994 C280 (retired)

I do know that China has a history of bloody revolutions.

Watch if the government did something like this and killed the economy, I bet some sort of leader would emerge. The military is already putting down revolts, quite a few, and times are good. Its not going to get better when times are bad.

I have studied China BTW and am basing my views on what they have done in the past.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

And the most of that comparatively small portion is "connected" one way or the other to the Chinese government.

We were selling packet seed to a gentleman in China for distribution in a chain of nursery/garden centers. For about 3 years, he would call up every six months or so and order $5K-$10K of assorted vegetable seed packets. About a week after placing each order, he would show up at our offices and whip out the corresponding amount of cash to pay for that order.

An interesting thing about the Chinese people, which he told us, is that they view Chinese made products very poorly and want to buy "American" products as a status symbol. There were no virtually no seed packet companies in China at the time which was why he contacted us.

Another interesting thing about China is that there is a tremendous amount of counterfeit, Chinese-made "American" products on the shelves because "American" products are the preferred choice. Often with the exact same name and logo, sometimes just slightly different. The publication and printing segment is huge over there, most color catalogs and many books sold here were printed there, so it's not difficult to get something reproduced.

Needless to say, we haven't heard from him for a couple of years now. And amazingly, there are counterfeit seed packets on the market with our own logo on them, sold in many of the garden centers and nurseries. We have taken legal action, albeit token since there is generally little to no recourse unless you're a multi-billion dollar company who has the means, lawyers and time to follow up on it.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
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The Chinese political regime is under tremendous stress from several factors, some historical and others of a more recent origin.

Historically, the nation has been strongly divided along regional, linguistic, and ethnic lines. The communists used these divisions to their advantage during the early 20th century. (It was also their good fortune that the Koumintang was thoroughly corrupt and inept -- the perfect enemy for a communist uprising, not unlike Czarist Russia in that respect.)

Under the strong repression of Maoist Communism the various historical divisions were brutally oppressed -- millions of people died in the continuous upheavals during the middle-third of the 20th century as the communists slowly suppressed the various factional divisions. This is the stability that Tito offered the former state known as Yugoslavia. However with the growing power of the non-communists in China and the relaxation of central control, the historical divisions are re-emerging. The importance of these divisions is magnified by the disparity of entrepreneurial wealth and the increasingly evident corruption of the government's organs responsible for development.

It is more than likely that the central government will be forced by the Chinese Army to crack-down on the factionalization that is anathema to any centrally-controlled, authoritarian government. (The way a democracy deals with factions is through political empowerment -- bring'em into the process and they are no longer a threat to stability and order. Practically by definition, a communist government cannot sustain itself with a diversity of opinion in the populace).

So I think that China is on a collision course with itself. the factors of calcified central control, an increasingly politically powerful military, resurgence of regionalism, and the stressors of economic growth will make China increasingly unstable. This is not an all-good thing or an all-bad thing. But there is no question that it is extraordinarily dangerous and will get worse, much worse, IMO. I'm betting China will engage in one of it's periodic civil wars in which many millions die. China has a long history of self-butchery. There is no reason to believe those factors which brought on previous bloodbaths are no longer at work.

I have time in my schedule for a few whippings.....Why would they do something like this when we import most of their crap?

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"It's normal for these things to empty your wallet and break your heart in the process."
2012 SLK 350
1987 420 SEL

Yep I think your correct, at least for me the queston is how will China emerge from such a conflict. Will they emerge as a first world power, or be thrown back in time 50 years? One thing a civil war will do is drive all the manufacturing out, well faster then its already leaving.

Also don't forget that the military is now tied pretty closely with big companies.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200