Deductive reasoning tells me that since they are making the guidelines the law of the land that it is so.

I am asking what do you know or should I say imagine the truth is? Apparently you have not bothered to read the anti-torture legislation or missed the news when those folks were put in jail for mistreatment or prisoners.

I don't. I see the situation and go with it. If you don't restrain from hurting my people and indulge in your pleasures, I'll do the same.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I'm not surprised you find it plausible.
You also don't want others to hear certain things that you know you shouldn't be doing.


Then there's no difference between you and them but geography.

__________________
1984 300TD

Of course. They want results but don't want to get their hands dirty.

So? They are still the enemy.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

The powers that be can say that they are not using torture techniques, because the standard of torture; as used by both charlie and CIA mercs,in the 1960s, is to carve up a mans wife and children in front of him. Anything less is just persuasion.

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Dave
1983 300D Daily Driver

Linkee?

B

No need for links around here all you need is an imagination or feeling.

No, I have not read the legislation. I am under the impression that our president and his administration feels that the Geneva convention's rules are too restrictive and we are not following them.
I believe we are signatories of the Geneva convention.

Tom Walgamuth

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

The Geneva Conventions apply to soldiers and civilians who behave in a certain prescribed way. If they fail to behave in that way then applying the Conventions is discretionary. For example, Al Qaeda does not represent a signatory of the Conventions nor does it abide by the conventions in treatment of prisoners, treatment of civilians, how and where in establishes military facilities and association with a government. Therefore, the Conventions do not apply since the Conventions are narrowly focused on LEGAL combatants and civilians. Since they do not fall within anybody's interpretation of the Conventions, it is entirely voluntary that we open GITMO to ICRC and others.

So then we look for some other "controlling legal authority", to borrow a useful phrase from a man who undoubtedly knows. There are a few treaties that the USA has signed concerning basic human rights. There is also a presumption in our government that some sort of fundamental human rights are a fundamental aspect of humanity. There are a few laws but not many. These treaties, assumptions, and laws are what guides our federal court's decisions concerning treatment.

Curiously, the present administration has not argued the precedences of either Lincoln or FDR in court, as far as I know. Both of whom were far more arbitrary than the present administration.

I would be interested in examples of Lincoln and FDR's behavior which compares to this administrations.

Tom W

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

If you want to model yourself after them, make yourself morally equivalent to them, fine but don't drag my country down to the enemy's moral level.

__________________
1984 300TD

Lincoln ordered the military to round-up and jail newspaper editors, publishers, and reporters. Lincoln had people jailed without trial in defiance of habeas corpus pleas. Lincoln had one member of Congress forcibly deported from the USA under threat of jail.

FDR established a tribunal for the single purpose of trying and executing German commandoes who landed on the East coast with sabotage plans. They were tried and executed. FDR established concentration camps for American citizens of Japanese descent. Most were held in the concentration camps until after the war's end.

The current administration has jailed 2 American citizens (IIRC) on US soil as enemy combatants but did not suspend habeas corpus and when ordered by the courts (after following the legal appeal process) to charge or release the accused, charged them with crimes. (I think they were both convicted, but I'm not certain.) The enemy combatants held at GTMO are not American citizens nor are they enemy combatants under the Geneva Conventions nor are they on American soil.

Thus far, no substantial evidence has been produced to indicate any physical torture ordered by anybody in the chain of command has occurred. allegations of mistreatment include keeping prisoners awake using various means such as loud music or forcing the enemy combatant to assume uncomfortable positions for periods of time. Psychological stress is commonly employed including verbal harassment and 'water-boarding'. All of the above treatment is routinely administered by American military and clandestine services ON EACH OTHER as part of their training.

I'm not sure whether Al Qaeda's prisoner treatment has undergone the same scrutiny. Folks who have investigated it have a pattern of turning-up dead. But it's probably moot since most of their prisoners are beheaded on camera.

B

If you are going to discuss torture reading legislation and information about torture is HUGE!

I would agree with the admin. The rules are antiquated and stupid and not going to be followed by all. Since they are not following it, why should we.

So what? Is the other side also under the same obligation? If not, why should we be?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Have you read all of that?

Tom W

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.