Ocean life in peril: best interview I've heard on the topic - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #91 11-13-2007, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Aklim, earlier CMAC & I made reference to "The Tragedy of the Commons", a book by Garret Thomas. The ocean is a commons and is suffering the same fate as the English commons suffered in the 17th through 19th century.

In the old days in England most land was owned by various lords. But there was some land not owned by the lords that was open to non-nobility. These people had access to common land (hence commoners and "House of Commons"). The commons were grazing land that the non-nobility to graze their livestock on. This worked just fine for a few centuries when the human population was rather static and when people raised what they needed, selling the excess to traders. But things changed with the shift from faith to science, the population increased, industrialization and trade increased and that resulted in a great profit motive for commoners who produced excess to sell their surplus.

There was no formal regulation of the commons. When the system was largely clanish that was not a problem. But as civil society emerged, written rules supplanted familiar relations. One of the results was there was no longer restraint on herd size. Worse, they had no formal concept of what we now call, "carrying capacity" -- the amount of a species of animals that can be sustained by a given resource. In the case of the commons, the resource was the carrying capacity of the land for grazers such as sheep and cattle.

Herders noticed that if the total herd size got too big that the weight per animal decreased. However, if a particular commoner ran a large herd, even though the individual animals were smaller, the aggregate was larger. So commoners ran larger and larger herds while carrying capacity decreased as the herds degraded the environment. Eventually the system collapsed through animal disease and degradation of the commons, leaving the commoners destitute and prey for the industrialists who profited off of the bounty of cheap labor.

The oceans are a common. Overfishing favors the most industrious fishermen and penalizes the conservative fisherman. Since there is no "controlling legal authority" there is no reason that the various species of interest wont be harvested, one species at a time, into extinction.

This is the proper time for government to exercise it's power and influence over free trade. So far, most countries have failed to do that and so, the tragedy continues before our eyes.

You've studied it more than I. An older woman who used to run my favorite open mic in Seattle was quite the collector of songs, active in the Sea Shanty scene up there and she would sing the "Diggers Song" now and then, about one of the groups trying to eke out living on common land:

THE SONG OF DIGGERS
(Leon Rosselson)

In Sixteen forty-nine, in St. Georges Hill, a ragged band they called the diggers
Came to show the peoples will,
They defied the landlords, they defied the law
They were the dispossessed, reclaiming what was theirs

The sin of property, we do disdain,
No man has the right to buy and sell the earth for private gain
By theft or murder, they took they land,
Now everywhere the walls spring up at their command

Chorus:
"We come in peace," they said, "to dig and sow.”
"We come to work the land together and to make the wastelands grow.”
This earth divided, we will make whole
So it can be a common treasury for all

They make the laws to chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven, then they damn us into hell
We will not worship, the God they serve
A life of greed that feeds the rich while people starve

We work, we eat together, we need no swords
We will not bow to the masters; play no rent to the lords
We are free men, though we are poor
You diggers all stand up for glory, stand up now

Chorus

From the men of property, the orders came
They brought the hired men and troopers to wipe out the diggers claim
Tear down their cottages, destroy their corn
They were dispersed only their legend lingers on

You poor take courage, you rich take care
This earth was made a common treasury for every man to share
All things in common, all people one
We can in peace the orders came to cut them down

Spurred by this, I did a little study on the enclosure movements, which have a certain feel of land-grabbing injustice about them.

Later, I read bits and pieces of the degradation of the commons that you refer to above. Oh hell, no easily defined heroes and villains in this story.

I grew up in NM, a big state. I looked at a globe the other day and imagined a NM sized bit of oceanic territory. Not a large piece of the Pacific, or any big ocean. Trying to keep vessels out of such a region would be a tall order. Look at how much trouble searchers can have looking for a single vessel in the open sea. Maybe technology will advance to the point where oceans, being devoid of permanent structure, can be scanned more easily so that rogue fishing vessels can be easily detected and located.

cmac2012 · #92 11-13-2007, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

Every sane person knows....Liberalism is a mental disorder...........

Dude, your regular falling back on easy buzz words -- "Liberalism" -- is clear indication, if any more were needed, of your intellectual laziness.

And BTW, the post of mine you quoted was in response to Aklim's post just before the one you posted, you got in before I could post the reply.

aklim · #93 11-13-2007, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I think it's way naive to think we can dismiss any possibility that some sort of metaphysical being or beings exist.

Yes, said being COULD exist. However, it also could be that said being does not exist. Nobody knows yet.

aklim · #94 11-13-2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

Every sane person knows....Liberalism is a mental disorder...........

As found in what part of the DSM IV?

t walgamuth · #95 11-13-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Yes, said being COULD exist. However, it also could be that said being does not exist. Nobody knows yet.

Not being sure about the heavan and hell thing, I am trying to be good just in case it is true.

I guess I would describe myself as an agnostic who embraces Christian principles.

Tom W

aklim · #96 11-13-2007, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Not being sure about the heavan and hell thing, I am trying to be good just in case it is true.

I guess I would describe myself as an agnostic who embraces Christian principles.

Tom W

Isn't that like the "believe in case it is true" thing that many people do? AFAIK, if you believe, you are fine. According to that, if Hitler and Stalin truly believed, they are fine too. Not too sure on that.

Matt SD300 · #97 11-13-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Not being sure about the heavan and hell thing, I am trying to be good just in case it is true.

I guess I would describe myself as an agnostic who embraces Christian principles.

Tom W

Give it up, its a waste of time....No one could ever be good enough....

Salvation ....is only given by faith...............

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

aklim · #98 11-13-2007, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

Salvation ....is only given by faith...............

Not given. SOLD.

732002 · #99 11-13-2007, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

Give it up, its a waste of time....No one could ever be good enough....

Salvation ....is only given by faith...............

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

How do you choose what God(s) to have faith in?
Most just take their parents religion. This lacks logic.
Lucky me to be born into the true religion.

aklim · #**100** 11-13-2007, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 732002

How do you choose what God(s) to have faith in?
Most just take their parents religion. This lacks logic.
Lucky me to be born into the true religion.

Make a SWAG
Monkey See, Monkey do
If you say so. Many other religious people will say the same thing

Txjake · #**101** 11-13-2007, 12:13 PM

I've always thought that anyone (or country) that is involved in commercial fishing should (read must) be required to repopulate what they take out of the water. we have never practiced sustainable fishing anywhere. The Japanese are the worst....

John Doe · #**102** 11-13-2007, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

we have never practiced sustainable fishing anywhere.

The Japanese are the worst....

I personally have for ten years and know many that do similarly situated to myself.

With you on the Japanese though.

Botnst · #**103** 11-13-2007, 12:45 PM

The gone but not forgotten Zeitgeist worked as an observer on fishing fleets. Wish he could chime in on this issue.

732002 · #**104** 11-13-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Make a SWAG
Monkey See, Monkey do
If you say so. Many other religious people will say the same thing

SWAG = Free promotional merchandise?
Heaven is SWAG

5150 now SWAG. I thought I was doing
well knowing 420 and 187.

It seems that we are getting near the worlds limits,
fish, oil, fresh water etc. Will the world work together
to solve these problems or go to war?

Botnst · #**105** 11-13-2007, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 732002

SWAG = Free promotional merchandise?
Heaven is SWAG

5150 now SWAG. I thought I was doing
well knowing 420 and 187.

It seems that we are getting near the worlds limits,
fish, oil, fresh water etc. Will the world work together
to solve these problems or go to war?

I see no change in human nature from the earliest recorded history unto today. We will do same as has always been done.