Prison Planet - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #46 01-07-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I have no problem with forced labor. If you are worried about negative affects on the other labor markets have them do something pointless, like move piles of rocks in remote parts of Alaska.

That's great for punishment but I fail to see any rehabilitative quality. If the goal of incarceration is only to protect society and to punish the perps then you have the perfect prescription. Let's go with that, just for fun.

In my prison I have only white-collar criminals. They are bright and eager to work. So I set them up as on-line real estate or stock brokers. Is that fair?

B

aklim · #47 01-07-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

That's great for punishment but I fail to see any rehabilitative quality. If the goal of incarceration is only to protect society and to punish the perps then you have the perfect prescription. Let's go with that, just for fun.

In my prison I have only white-collar criminals. They are bright and eager to work. So I set them up as on-line real estate or stock brokers. Is that fair?

Problem is we are so focussed on rehabbing these people we forget why we have them there. Lets punish them first to make them pay for their crimes. Maybe they will think twice about it if we make it tough enough. Now, after their time is up, we can focus on rehabbing them IF they want it. Otherwise, lets make it a deterrent and not a holiday camp.

Who gets the money they make? Who pays for the losses?

Botnst · #48 01-07-2008, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

1. Don't you? for the most part a slave is owned permanently. IOW, I own you and any children you breed. A prisoner compelled to work is basically made to earn his keep.

2. I don't have a problem with making him pick up trash, break rocks, etc, etc. Anything to make him work his debt off. Otherwise we have to pick up the tab for his incarceration.

1. prisoners vary from short-timers to lifers. Clearly, short-term, non-lifers fall within your category. Lifers fall into mine. In between are the longer-term non-lifers. Let's say a man has "only" 30 years to serve and he's in his mid-20's. He has a "choice" of staying in a 10X6 cell for 30 years or doing piecework on the prison factory floor for $1.00/hr with $9.00/hr (or whatever, I pulled those figures out of nowhere) taken by the state to pay for his incarceration.

To me, that is so very near involuntary compulsion that I believe it is a form of slavery, but I can accept that you do not see it that way.

Let's say you have a business that manufactures (or imports) stamped metal items. I'm the prison warden and I convince my state legislature to buy the machinery and to build a factory to produce stamped items. I will compete directly with you. Sound fair?

B

aklim · #49 01-07-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Let's say you have a business that manufactures (or imports) stamped metal items. I'm the prison warden and I convince my state legislature to buy the machinery and to build a factory to produce stamped items. I will compete directly with you. Sound fair?

B

I am not talking about you making money and what not. I am talking about making the workers earn their keep. Fine, you don't want to take away other jobs. No problem. Set it up so that they have to sell it at competitive prices. IOW, you cannot make widgets and sell it below my price. If I sell a widget at $1 apiece, you have to sell it at $1 too. What's that? Your overhead is really low and so you are making 10X more than me? No problem. That money can go back to your food, medical benefits while in prison, prison upkeep (building, equipment, wages for guards, etc, etc) and oh, if you want to, something for rehabbing those who want to AFTER the sentence is over. Lets say you are released today. You have a choice. Go out on the street or be housed as a free person and sent to school or taught a trade, etc, etc. Not before, not during but AFTER your sentence is done.

Hatterasguy · #50 01-07-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

That's great for punishment but I fail to see any rehabilitative quality. If the goal of incarceration is only to protect society and to punish the perps then you have the perfect prescription. Let's go with that, just for fun.

In my prison I have only white-collar criminals. They are bright and eager to work. So I set them up as on-line real estate or stock brokers. Is that fair?

B

Isn't learning to work an 8 hour day rehablilitative in itself? Its a life skill that a lot of them lack. If the work is real unpleasent all the better, I want prision to be a very unpleasent experiance, as much as possible.

aklim · #51 01-07-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Isn't learning to work an 8 hour day rehablilitative in itself? Its a life skill that a lot of them lack. If the work is real unpleasent all the better, I want prision to be a very unpleasent experiance, as much as possible.

Well, has the rehab effort worked? I think not. So why are we beating that dead horse? Get to the deterrent part so they don't want to be back. If they are interested in rehabbing themselves, something else can be set up for them later. Till then, punish the hell out of them

Botnst · #52 01-07-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Isn't learning to work an 8 hour day rehablilitative in itself? Its a life skill that a lot of them lack. If the work is real unpleasent all the better, I want prision to be a very unpleasent experiance, as much as possible.

turn it inside out and see how it fits.

Shouldn't all those darkies we brought (at our expense) from Africa and trained in the agricultural sciences (at our expense) be grateful?

B

aklim · #53 01-07-2008, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Shouldn't all those darkies we brought (at our expense) from Africa and trained in the agricultural sciences (at our expense) be grateful?

Did those darkies get dragged here or did they do some crime to deserve their fate? They were somebody who got pressganged into something they didn't deserve. Criminals DID something to deserve their fate. I don't see the similarities. One was dragged here to do free work thru no fault of his own. The other would be somebody who harmed society and was made to work off his debt.

To me it is like somebody who couldn't pay his restaurant tab and is made to wash dishes vs someone we dragged off the street to wash dishes. Both are doing the same thing. One deserved it and the other didn't

Skippy · #54 01-08-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Let's say a man has "only" 30 years to serve and he's in his mid-20's. He has a "choice" of staying in a 10X6 cell for 30 years or doing piecework on the prison factory floor for $1.00/hr with $9.00/hr (or whatever, I pulled those figures out of nowhere) taken by the state to pay for his incarceration.

To me, that is so very near involuntary compulsion that I believe it is a form of slavery, but I can accept that you do not see it that way.

B

Not a problem, 13th Amendment to the U.S. Consistution (section 1): Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Botnst · #55 01-08-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy

Not a problem, 13th Amendment to the U.S. Consistution (section 1): Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime where of the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

That's the #1 best argument against what I have advanced. That amendment is why we have prison labor and I'll bet it is also why prisoners in the USA are compensated (after withholding prison expenses) -- to distinguish between involuntary servitude and slavery.