Another campus shooting - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

WVOtoGO · #**106** 02-22-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt145ss

I agree that mandatory ownership is not the answer, for obvious reasons, however, blanket disarmament is not the answer either as it only disarms the law abiding citizens because the criminals will carry either way.

Two points: One, I mentioned Kennesaw because is shows a direct relationship between law abiding citizens possessing firearms and the drop in the crime rate (the inverse relationship clearly shows that the more law abiding citizens who possess a firearm the less crime there is in that region) . Two, CHL and/or a permit systems seems to work when the restrictions are reasonable and are considered “Shall Issue.” This can be determined by the many reports out there that show that those who are issued permits are not people committing crime.

I am very pro 2A, and that being said, I also do not believe everyone should be allowed to possess a firearm. I believe there should be some “reasonable” restrictions on both ownership and carry. I think the real issue is determining what is reasonable and what is not.

For example, I think it is reasonable to say that mental defectives should not be allowed to own or possess a firearm. I also think it would be reasonable to have a built in mechanism/process so that a mental defective can prove their stability and get their right back. A good example of this is that some legislators out there are trying to band combat vets diagnosed with post traumatic stress syndrome from owning or possessing firearms. I “might” concede that one that is diagnosed with PTSS is unstable and should not be allowed to own or possess a firearm, However, I would assert that at some point they might be stable and should be afforded their constitutional right.

I agree 100%

We're on the same page, side of the coin, fence, whatever.

DieselAddict · #**107** 02-22-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pt145ss

I assume you are referring specifically to shootings on college campuses. I can not comment on whether or not school shootings occur more per capita in the US than other countries, However, I can comment on the fact that countries with stricter gun laws usually have a higher crime rate per capita than countries with less gun restrictions. In fact we see this trend in our own country. A case in point is Warsaw, GA (I could be wrong about the town…I will have to find the link), which at some point had fairly high crime per capita for that size town. The city made it mandatory that every head of household own a gun. Since then the city has enjoyed a virtually crime free city.

Case in point, Washington, DC has some of the most restrictive guns laws in the country and also has some of the highest crime rates per capita in the country.

I will leave you with this:

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” (Thomas Jefferson Quoting Cesare Beccaria)

EDIT...It was Kennesaw, GA....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288

WVOtoGO said it right. I've looked into that stats before and it's easy to cherry-pick them to support any belief you might have. My impression is that overall legal gun ownership doesn't seem to affect the murder rate. There are peaceful, relatively heavily-armed countries like Finland and Switzerland, and there are peaceful, virtually unarmed societies like Japan. There are also violent societies like US and Mexico where US is heavily armed and Mexico is not. It's got everything to do with how civilized and peaceful the population is. The US has a long way to go.

WVOtoGO · #**108** 02-22-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Well, lets look at it this way:
You are in a classroom, if its like many of the classrooms when I went to college then there are two entrances/exits, usually on one wall of the room. A lunatic enters, draws weapons and starts shooting. There will be a stampede to the doors if the shooter is not blocking them and/or people piling up in the back of the room trying to cover themselves, etc.

So the question you are asking is do I want to be in this situation with a lunatic shooter and no other person armed? Or do I want at least the CHANCE of a CCW present that MAY be able to return fire? I will take the CHANCE with CCW every time. Sure, there is a chance that I may be killed by the CCW, or even the police, if they make it on time and shoot the anybody in the room with a gun. I'll take that CHANCE.

Without that CHANCE I and everyone else in the room is a victim just waiting for execution and praying that someone "saves" us.

Lets take a look at the VT shooting. The lunatic went room to room, shooting and reloading, returning to some rooms to shoot people again. The holocaust survivor professor was shot trying to barricade a door and keep the lunatic at bay. Do the naysayers NOT see how there might have been a CHANCE for someone to do something if CCW had been allowed? How much F#$%ing clearer can I make it?

My original comments revolved around simply allowing CCW permit holders to carry in more places, like universities, etc. The CCW holders are already there. It would be extremely unlikely that someone would run right out and obtain CCW permit simply to carry on campuses. The people that want them already have them, they just leave the weapons at home when they can't carry where they are going. This is not "arming everyone" or any of the other alarmist BS stated above.

RT

First off – I sure hope you’re not referring to me with the “alarmist BS” line.

Anyway. Let’s look at it this way:
Kid passes every test and background check and gets a CHL, CCW, whatever….
Kid has his gun in his backpack when some nut-bag comes into the room armed to the teeth and attempts to start killing other students.
Kid pulls out his gun and drops the nut-bag before he gets a shot off.
Kid wakes up the next day a national hero.
(I’m all for that story, BTW.)
-or-
Kid wakes up the night before to the sound of gun shots. It seems that some other members of his frat house got drunk, found his gun and just “accidentally” (they just wanted to scare him) shot some kid from another frat coming over to TP their house. Other kids parents sue the sh-t out of the school for allowing this to happen…
-or-
Something related to “Thank God that wonderful man had a gun and put a stop to the madness….”
-or-
Well. Bottom line. If he didn’t have that gun….
-or-

Well…that list of stories can go on forever.
And for every -or- that anyone can add to it, either good ending or bad. Someone can always add one to the contrary. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not all cut and dry.

I agree with what you’ve said. I like your story. But you said yourself: “Let’s look at it this way:” If that’s how we look at it fine. I hope I’m in the class with you. I hope we can triangulate the MF and one of us gets a clear shot. After the CNN interview, I’ll buy the first round at the bar.

As for VT. Yep – Sure would have been nice if someone had a gun in there besides the nut-bag.
But how/who/why/etc. we get a gun in there isn’t as cut and dry as some might think. That’s all I’m saying. If it were that cut and dry. It would have been cut and dried some time ago.

“My original comments revolved around simply allowing CCW permit holders to carry in more places, like universities…”
From recent events, I can certainly see your point. And, I agree.

But how are we (PLEASE NOTE THAT I SAID: “WE”) going to deal with the irate parents who wont send their kids to a school that’s a melting pot of people, some of whom can legally walk around on, as well as live on, get drunk on, live in groups on, with a gun? (This picture gets much bigger, quite quickly btw.)

Sadly – This can go ‘round and ‘round forever.

Like has been said above. The trick is figuring out some sort of "law abiding citizens” formula. Somewhere in the formula also lies the “factors of large groups” formula and the “every scenario is different” formula. Once we get the formulas down, only then can the proper changes/laws/procedures be made that keep the masses happy.

edit:
Until then – Both extremist parties can bang their heads on the wall all they want.
I’ve got better things to do with my head (either one), so I’m not going to join either.

pt145ss · #**109** 02-22-2008, 01:52 PM

I think I have mentioned this before but here it goes again.

I have a 14 yr old son at home. I have several guns at home as a well. I am confident that my son will make the right choice when it comes to firearms…why you ask? From the time I introduced guns into the house, I taught my son how to respect the firearm. I taught him respect for it, I taught him safe handling of it, I taught him marksmanship with it ( he loves going to the range with me). I also teach my son values, not only when it come to firearms but values in everyday life. My wife and I do not simply let him watch what ever he wants on TV or play any video game that suits his fancy. He is not allowed to watch shows that glorify violence or the abuse of women, and etc. The same goes for his video games and music. I am one of the fortunate ones that get home at a decent hour and able to have dinner with the entire family. During dinner we watch the news and have round table discussions about the topics discussed on the news that day. We teach our kids the value of hard work and the value of earning money to get those things in life we want. We teach them that every action has a consequence. Some actions have positive consequences while other have negative consequences. The kids learn that making the right choice usually leads to a positive consequence and therefore open more doors and opportunities, while making a bad choice usually leads to a negative consequence which shuts door and opportunities.

The bottom line is that a lot of the issues can be resolved simply by getting involved in our children’s lives. Teaching them values. Teaching them right from wrong. Standing up and not being afraid to parent and mentor our children…even at the risk of them hating us…because we know that it is the right thing to do….and they will thank us when they are 30 yrs old and have their own children.

I will get off my soap box now….sorry for the rant.

rwthomas1 · #**110** 02-22-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVOtoGO

First off – I sure hope you’re not referring to me with the “alarmist BS” line.

Well, it wasn't directed at you but stating that I should "hope" that you didn't doesn't fly with me either. You can type whatever you want, within the rules and so can I. I can state that its "alarmist BS" and its my opinion. Stating that I should "hope" that you didn't take it personally is walking right up to the line of making a threat.

Anyway. Let’s look at it this way:
Kid passes every test and background check and gets a CHL, CCW, whatever….
Kid has his gun in his backpack when some nut-bag comes into the room armed to the teeth and attempts to start killing other students.
Kid pulls out his gun and drops the nut-bag before he gets a shot off.
Kid wakes up the next day a national hero.
(I’m all for that story, BTW.)
-or-
Kid wakes up the night before to the sound of gun shots. It seems that some other members of his frat house got drunk, found his gun and just “accidentally” (they just wanted to scare him) shot some kid from another frat coming over to TP their house. Other kids parents sue the sh-t out of the school for allowing this to happen…

Kinda tough to sue the school for following state and federal laws.... In some respects it would actually alleviate the schools responsibility.

-or-
Something related to “Thank God that wonderful man had a gun and put a stop to the madness….”
-or-
Well. Bottom line. If he didn’t have that gun….
-or-

I see your point well however I can tell you from experience that guns are on campus already. Legally or not. There were 4 or 5 in my fraternity alone, wasn't legal then or now. Then again, they didn't go to class but the nearby range before it closed.

You are correct that lots of things can happen when guns are present, some bad. One of the better things about CCW is that it does allow a modicum of control over who is allowed. Usually 21 and older, extensively background checked and usually required to train or show proficiency. Generally the CCW holder is pretty responsible and locks/secures weapons. Generally. The "illegal" guns are still there. Some are owned by college students that like to shoot. I'm sure some are owned by idiots that think its "cool" But the statistics do not bear out that there is a major problem here.

Well…that list of stories can go on forever.
And for every -or- that anyone can add to it, either good ending or bad. Someone can always add one to the contrary. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not all cut and dry.

I agree with what you’ve said. I like your story. But you said yourself: “Let’s look at it this way:” If that’s how we look at it fine. I hope I’m in the class with you. I hope we can triangulate the MF and one of us gets a clear shot. After the CNN interview, I’ll buy the first round at the bar.

As for VT. Yep – Sure would have been nice if someone had a gun in there besides the nut-bag.
But how/who/why/etc. we get a gun in there isn’t as cut and dry as some might think. That’s all I’m saying. If it were that cut and dry. It would have been cut and dried some time ago.

“My original comments revolved around simply allowing CCW permit holders to carry in more places, like universities…”
From recent events, I can certainly see your point. And, I agree.

But how are we (PLEASE NOTE THAT I SAID: “WE”) going to deal with the irate parents who wont send their kids to a school that’s a melting pot of people, some of whom can legally walk around on, as well as live on, get drunk on, live in groups on, with a gun? (This picture gets much bigger, quite quickly btw.)

I suppose some parents will react that way. Their kids will attend Berkley . Again, even with CCW allowed the number of people doing so would likely be quite small. In addition as I have stated above people including the parents and their kids already live in an armed society. Some legally and some not. Thinking that a "gun free zone" is worth anything more than the sign would make them less than intelligent.

Sadly – This can go ‘round and ‘round forever.

Like has been said above. The trick is figuring out some sort of "law abiding citizens” formula. Somewhere in the formula also lies the “factors of large groups” formula and the “every scenario is different” formula. Once we get the formulas down, only then can the proper changes/laws/procedures be made that keep the masses happy.

You are correct. It is sad. The CCW mechanism is already in place and it appears to work everywhere else. Should also work on campuses. Maybe the school administration should be notified of the CCW and no resident of dormitories allowed to keep weapons? I can see where securing the weapon could prove problematic in a dorm situation. Most 21year olds don't live in dorms anyway.

edit:
Until then – Both extremist parties can bang their heads on the wall all they want.
I’ve got better things to do with my head (either one), so I’m not going to join either.

RT

WVOtoGO · #**111** 02-22-2008, 02:19 PM

First off – I sure hope you’re not referring to me with the “alarmist BS” line.

Sorry for any confusion.
"Sure hope..." As in, sure hope you're smarter than that.

Like I said: This can go ‘round and ‘round forever.

Botnst · #**112** 02-22-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVOtoGO

First off – I sure hope you’re not referring to me with the “alarmist BS” line.

Sorry for any confusion.
"Sure hope..." As in, sure hope you're smarter than that.

Like I said: This can go ‘round and ‘round forever.

Ha! We dragged you into this morass and you wont get yourass out!

B

DieselAddict · #**113** 02-22-2008, 03:15 PM

Given that you have to be over 21 to have a CCW, I can see another drawback here. It would do nothing in high schools and even on college campuses most students are under 21. A potential shooter would just plan on shooting up a 1st or 2nd year class or just go straight to the dorms.

pt145ss · #**114** 02-22-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Given that you have to be over 21 to have a CCW, I can see another drawback here. It would do nothing in high schools and even on college campuses most students are under 21. A potential shooter would just plan on shooting up a 1st or 2nd year class or just go straight to the dorms.

CCW/CHL would also allow faculty and staff to carry legally.

DieselAddict · #**115** 02-22-2008, 03:43 PM

That might help a bit but it would also make them the primary target.

pt145ss · #**116** 02-22-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

That might help a bit but it would also make them the primary target.

Yes...a target that can defend itself. A target that is not a child. A target that should be responsible in their decision making.

Last point is that concealed is concealed and the Bad Guy would not necessarily know which faculty and staff are armed. It could be the janitor or the principal/president.

WVOtoGO · #**117** 02-22-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Ha! We dragged you into this morass and you wont get yourass out!

B

Damn right: "morass".

Wont, my ass.

Have a nice ass day.

My ass is head'n out and up from here.

(I'll stop there)

Have a great weekend all !!

rwthomas1 · #**118** 02-22-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVOtoGO

First off – I sure hope you’re not referring to me with the “alarmist BS” line.

Sorry for any confusion.
"Sure hope..." As in, sure hope you're smarter than that.

Like I said: This can go ‘round and ‘round forever.

Gotcha! You're stuck here with the rest of us now. RT

Dee8go · #**119** 02-22-2008, 05:19 PM

I've decided to get my daughter a Glock for her high school graduation present. I want her to be ready for college at Virginia Tech in the Fall!

Budadow, Budadow, Bow, bow, bow!

tankdriver · #**120** 02-22-2008, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVOtoGO

People need to realize that with most any (if not every) gun related scenario, there is a never ending list of outcomes that can rightfully promote either side of the gun control issue.
To see only the outcomes that promote ones own stand, is nothing shy of selfish, narrow-minded stupidity.

With that said – Everyone feel free to go back to seeing who can bang their head on the wall the hardest.

I'm talking about the risks. The outcomes will be whatever they are. In regards to students carrying, I find the risks to be too high. Outcomes must have an occurrence. Each one will be an any given Sunday variety. Maybe a CCW holder will shoot the villain before he gets a shot off, maybe it'll be a bloodbath. Since the outcome cannot be known prior to the specific incident, we are forced to consider likely risks.
Don't worry though, I won't continue with someone who doesn't want to listen.

You can rest assured my posts are the alarmist BS, not yours. I find it a bit funny that I pretty much agree with pt145ss's post (#105), and rwthomas porbably agrees with him too. I'm the alarmist though.
I've given my reasons why I don't think it's a good idea to arm students. Despite pt145ss's post about his 14 yr old, I am not convinced that a)the majority of kids are going to be that responsible, b)it is wise to give kids the opportunity to make mistakes on that scale, and c)that any amount of parenting can completely eliminate a moment's rash decision - something kids are hard wired to make. it would be a shame to burden a kid with such heavy consequences. Let their bad decisions lead to a moment's regret.

I'm more comfortable with professors carrying. Students would know where the weapon is, cops would, and a professor is far less likely to have his gun used poorly in some frat house. That is an acceptable level of risk to me.
I don't think the DC ban or amy statistics re: crime v. gun ownership are telling in any way. For example, in DC you can walk across Memorial Bridge to VA and buy as many guns as you want at a gun show, walk back across the bridge and blast away.
I think the mentally ill should lose their right to own a gun. I think people under 21 shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. I think anyone convicted of a violent crime shouldn't be allowed to own. I think there should be a thorough federal background check when purchasing a gun, made possible by a 5 day waiting period. I think the gun show loophole should be closed federally. I think fingerprint resistant weapons should be off the market. I think a gun safety course should be required before purchase, like driver's ed is before being allowed behind the wheel. I think that's reasonable.

Oh, and one more: ban all guns.