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Botnst · #31 05-19-2008, 03:22 PM

Whom?

Hatterasguy · #32 05-19-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

I wonder how much the average German soldier knew about what Hitler was doing. On the other hand, so much of what they did in the ghettos and the concentration camps can't be justified, no matter how you cut it. And it took a whole bunch of willing accomplices to carry out those abominations.

I was recently at a dinner with several people, most of whom were only barely acquainted. One of the people at the dinner was a lady visiting from Germany. She was talking about the remote village where she grew up. You could have heard a pin drop when she said that she had been a member of the Hitler Youth. She said that the war was almost over by the time she and her family figured out that Hitler was a mad man. Propaganda is a powerful thing.

Han's Luck said he knew of the camps but not what was going on inside them. Actualy one of his friends got sent to one and he managed to get him out. He was very close to Rommal and knew Guderian. I suspect they used him as a go between for the 1944 bomb plot to kill Hitler. Guderian made a similer statement about the camps in his book, actualy I think he was so busy with his job that he knew even less than Luck. However if either knew they would have mentioned it to Luck.

The only thing the Allies had on Guderian is that he threatend to shoot some Polish prisoners in 1939 to get a town to surrender. It worked and they captured the town with no loss of life. He claimed to his dieing day that it was simply a bluff. They tried to pin the commissar order on him but he like many commanders never actualy issued it; they just let it get burried on their desks.

Matt SD300 · #33 05-20-2008, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

I wonder how much the average German soldier knew about what Hitler was doing. On the other hand, so much of what they did in the ghettos and the concentration camps can't be justified, no matter how you cut it. And it took a whole bunch of willing accomplices to carry out those abominations.

I was recently at a dinner with several people, most of whom were only barely acquainted. One of the people at the dinner was a lady visiting from Germany. She was talking about the remote village where she grew up. You could have heard a pin drop when she said that she had been a member of the Hitler Youth. She said that the war was almost over by the time she and her family figured out that Hitler was a mad man. Propaganda is a powerful thing.

X2............

Matt SD300 · #34 05-20-2008, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

I didn't mean to be disrespectful of your religious conviction.

German's were the first ones I had to forgive for what they f***ed up in the past and even today, there are many things that do not sit well with me.
Yet, I have to stay firm on what is of value to me.

I can't put the "Good Book" above My Heart. My Heart rules.

#1...I did not post anything in regards to belief/religious values in this thread??

#2...This is a biggie....True Christians... put God/Christ/Gods word (Holy Bible) "FIRST" in their lives....Gods ways and mans ways are very differant.......See its all about HIM....HE is the Creator,and we are the creation!!....

LaRondo · #35 05-20-2008, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

#1...I did not post anything in regards to belief/religious values in this thread??

#2...This is a biggie....True Christians... put God/Christ/Gods word (Holy Bible) "FIRST" in their lives....Gods ways and mans ways are very differant.......See its all about HIM....HE is the Creator,and we are the creation!!....

I didn't say you did, did I?
I took a step toward you, but apparently there's too much lack of understanding.

How can you put something you don't know first? Or, do you assume to know GOD? If you're heart doesn't understand, there is no other part that truly will.

Similar with the Bible. The Bible thrives on interpretations, millions of it.

True Christians know the call of their hearts, it's the man-made Christians who doctrinate based on their interpretaion of the Bible, following a man-made idea of what GOD maybe.

LaRondo · #36 05-20-2008, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

I wonder how much the average German soldier knew about what Hitler was doing. On the other hand, so much of what they did in the ghettos and the concentration camps can't be justified, no matter how you cut it. And it took a whole bunch of willing accomplices to carry out those abominations.

I was recently at a dinner with several people, most of whom were only barely acquainted. One of the people at the dinner was a lady visiting from Germany. She was talking about the remote village where she grew up. You could have heard a pin drop when she said that she had been a member of the Hitler Youth. She said that the war was almost over by the time she and her family figured out that Hitler was a mad man. Propaganda is a powerful thing.

The war was not about concentration camps. It's the most perpetrated misconception people have about WWII.

You're jumping from one aspect to another. No logic. You mention average soldiers, than you move to what you presume Hitler was doing, than to something you don't specify, that bares justification, by suggesting every average soldier did something at one of the getthos or concentration camps.

Soldiers fought the war. That's what they did. They died or they survived, by doing so.

Hitler didn't do anything, except having one fit after another, holding irrational speeches and giving insane orders.

That inturn was well acknowledged, by civilians and soldiers alike.

Now, what's so pin-dropping about a female who was in the Hitler Youth?
A vast number participated in it, based on the fact that it was mandatory at some point in time.

Even the Pope seemed to be a memebr of the HJ back in the days:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

And if, on the other hand, it took her that long to find out that Hitler was an insane and drug addicted lunatic, I like to tell you, the list of those who knew about him way before he came to power, is very long.

Yes, propaganda is a very powerful thing, still, Americans in general think they are immune to it.

To have an idea about propaganda is one thing, being impacted by the results of it, is another.
It takes the latter to sense an ounce of propaganda from afar, if it radiates.

Honus · #37 05-20-2008, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

The war was not about concentration camps...

Not at all? I understand that the camps were not the motivation for the allies. As I understand it, few people outside of the Nazi-controlled territory even knew about them. Even so, I would have thought that they were an important part of the story of the war.

Quote:

...by suggesting every average soldier did something at one of the getthos or concentration camps...

Really? I thought I suggested exactly the opposite.

Quote:

...Soldiers fought the war. That's what they did. They died or they survived, by doing so...

And none of them had anything to do with the ghettos or the concentration camps?

Quote:

...Hitler didn't do anything, except having one fit after another, holding irrational speeches and giving insane orders...

So, who commanded the organization that ran the ghettos and the camps? Hitler had nothing to do with that? And Hitler had nothing to do with invading Poland or any of that world domination stuff? Man, my history education was way off base. I had no idea.

Quote:

...Now, what's so pin-dropping about a female who was in the Hitler Youth?
A vast number participated in it, based on the fact that it was mandatory at some point in time...

We were surprised when she dropped it into the conversation. Sorry to disappoint you. The few German people I've met seem to want to avoid talking about Hitler. She volunteered. There was nothing inappropriate or even uncomfortable about it. I appreciated her openness.

Quote:

...And if, on the other hand, it took her that long to find out that Hitler was an insane and drug addicted lunatic, I like to tell you, the list of those who knew about him way before he came to power, is very long...

I don't doubt that.

Hatterasguy · #38 05-20-2008, 12:23 PM

I think the camps were tightly controlled by the police SS and Gestapo.

Totalitarian states are very good at keeping secrets.

From what I know about the military SS at least during the early parts of the war they were excellent fighting units. I know towards the end they started filling their ranks with criminals.

Honus · #39 05-20-2008, 01:03 PM

My guess is that the level of secrecy was proportional to the depravity of the tactics.

LaRondo · #40 05-20-2008, 04:33 PM

Hattie already tells you where to look ... Himmler, Eichmann, Hoess etc SS, Gestapo.

None or all of the average soldiers? If all of the millions of soldiers were busy with concentration camps, who then fought the war?

Personally, I think Hitler had more ill-strucken and submissive admirers who were cold blooded executors than he was a capeable commandier himself.

Speaking openly about Hitler is a personal preference.

My uncle and godfather who was a native Berliner, went East at the very beginning of the war, depoyed with a pioneer battalion. The "Vorhut", comparable to elite Marine units.

Their mission was not to get involved in anything they could avoid on the way East. Their mission was to get as far as possible into Russia, break through Russian lines and attack them from behind. A small battalion, completely on it's own.
One of those after which the term "Himmelfahrts Kommando" was coined.

They succeed, but to present an idea of how scared they were:

They had taken a skeleton from some Biology classroom and hung it from the cannon of leading tank, in the hope it would scare the living ***** out of any Russian they may run into ....

pj67coll · #41 05-20-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

I think the camps were tightly controlled by the police SS and Gestapo.

Totalitarian states are very good at keeping secrets.

From what I know about the military SS at least during the early parts of the war they were excellent fighting units. I know towards the end they started filling their ranks with criminals.

There were SS units of exceptional fighting ability. But ther were also other units much less so. And they had started filling the ranks with criminals in some of the units long before the latter stages of the war.

- Peter.

cmac2012 · #42 05-20-2008, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Well, the spin starts with "bitter Germans" and ends with 6 million killed Jews. In between I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that there is a blame on Israel for Germany's WWII destruction?
As you state otherwise Israel as such exists only since 1948?

On another note, Matt, I'll ask you, when does the US government stop to appease Israel and/or cover their wrong doing and let them get away with murder? Since 60 years.

You made many claims to be a humble Christian and made countless quotes from scriptures.
You seem to forget a very basic trademark of Christianity. Forgiveness!

Now, if you find any sign of forgiveness in spreading Pseudo-Anti-Nazi propaganda on anyone's plate, plus setting standards for requirement to obey those repetitive notions, mantra-like, as an entire nation ...

...bye bye America!

If you refer to me personally as a "bitter German", I can enlighten you. I am not.
Yet, I am definitely one of them, speaking out against the ongoing defamation of Germans in general, because of 3. Reich history.

Also, I am Christian, my heart thrives on forgiveness. NO scriptures required!

Read this with a conscious mind:

Germans are a fine people, they always were and they always will be.
They are not perfect, just as no one else is perfect.

Here you can take a little tour on the numerical terms of Jews and others perished through the given period:

http://www.rense.com/general62/cnn.htm

Ironic that the same crowd who slam Germany in this manner frequently bemoan the fact that we didn't have the stomach to nuke Vietnam and show them damn commies who was boss.

Apparently mass murder is OK if made in the USA.

Botnst · #43 05-20-2008, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Ironic that the same crowd who slam Germany in this manner frequently bemoan the fact that we didn't have the stomach to nuke Vietnam and show them damn commies who was boss.

Apparently mass murder is OK if made in the USA.

Not that we would wish to paint anybody with a broad-brush stroke or anything.

cmac2012 · #44 05-20-2008, 05:12 PM

1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese dead? This is too insignificant for you?

And the likes of Ollie North and the current poser in chief bemoaning the fact that we didn't "finish the job" ever since?

Ambition and pride can be some whack motivators.

Botnst · #45 05-20-2008, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

1.5 to 3 million Vietnamese dead? This is too insignificant for you?

And the likes of Ollie North and the current poser in chief bemoaning the fact that we didn't "finish the job" ever since?

Ambition and pride can be some whack motivators.

"Broad Brush" in this case means that you apply monochromatic paint to everybody who doesn't agree with your characterization of events.

B