Algae bioreactor - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #91 07-26-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

On the other hand, the govt hasn't been able to screw up the oil industry, has it? In fact it's doing remarkably well, with record profits (compared to its own past profits).

3 points.

1. One swallow does make a summer.

2. It is pretty difficult to build a refinery today

3. It already is an established business. Algae oil is NOT.

Put it another way. I don't know YOU personally and I certainly do not trust you. OTOH, you don't have a bad record that they have. Therefore, if I had to let someone manage my personal finances and the choices are you or the govt, I would certainly pick you. Why? Because unlike the govt, YOU don't have a history of screwing it up. Govt is like chemotherapy. A last resort when things are so FUBARd that it cannot get any worse. AKA, a Hail Mary Play.

aklim · #92 07-26-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 79-240d-project

And given the govt's current record of late(30yrs) they would screw it up.

And that is why I said that it is best that we let this industry grow by itself. Sure, there is the risk of someone else beating it to the punch. OTOH, that means less of a risk of the govt making life more difficult for either the industry and/or the users.

DieselAddict · #93 07-26-2008, 01:03 PM

So what's wrong with having the govt at least try to provide a level playing field? I don't think there's too much that can go wrong. I would definitely say it's better to at least try than to do nothing and continue giving the oil industry special tax breaks so that we can continue being addicted to oil until it runs out.

aklim · #94 07-26-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

So what's wrong with having the govt at least try to provide a level playing field? I don't think there's too much that can go wrong.

I would definitely say it's better to at least try than to do nothing and continue giving the oil industry special tax breaks so that we can continue being addicted to oil until it runs out.

You must be a leader of the Optimist Club in NV. You see all the signs around you about the "help" they gave and you still think that their "help" won't screw up things. You were telling me about their hand in the military. Did you consider the purchasing that they have done? With systems the soldiers don't want and the complications and what not. Clean Air? Lets farm ethanol. Great idea. But still you think that their "help" is going to be simple and easy. OK. I suppose that if I bounced 100 checks with you you might still take a chance on Check #101?

I am saying that if we did nothing, the industry can grow on it's own. If we have govt "help", it would make things very complicated and might even choke it to death. Is that what you want? What have you seen the govt do that indicates this will be a quick, painless bit of help? I have yet to see anything, and maybe you can help me out here, that the govt has involved itself in that hasn't resulted in more cost, complications and other undesirable things.

What makes you so optimistic? Their great recent history? The promise of a quick, easy and painless boost? All you seem to say is "Govt involvement gets results.". Maybe in Europe it might. I don't know. Show me some of their history that hasn't involved problems generated after their "help". Maybe not today but tomorrow, it will come to bite us back in the butt.

cmac2012 · #95 07-26-2008, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D

Nah, no electrical grid. Solar would be the way to go for these installations.

An on-site solar station isn't hard to do. Connecting to the existing power grid is the hard part for solar.

Energy requirements would be pretty small and if necessary they could probably burn the algae cake to create power.

CO2 supply would be the hardest part.

The solar collection fields would double as the drying field and I should imagine they could use water storage tanks as the on-site presses to extract the oil. Low tech solutions to a low tech process.

Of course, what was I thinking -- this is energy that will be shipped out in tankers, not on an electrical grid.

Nice thing about these too, if they really pan out, you could have complexes of various sizes all over arid parts of the US, of which there are a goodly amount.

I only raise objection cuz the idea of having 10% of any state devoted to one thing is just not likely to happen -- even 1%.

cmac2012 · #96 07-26-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Our country is what it is today because of the people who inhabit it The government is a gaudy hood ornament to our society and culture.

And w/o some sort of gub-mint, the people would be able to marshal their forces for large projects how, exactly? As in, creating armies, disaster recovery, etc.

Our founders set this up so the gub-mint is the people -- to the extent that it is no longer we have ourselves to blame.

cmac2012 · #97 07-26-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 79-240d-project

Our country is what it is today because of the investment our government made in our national infrastructure. Well guess what, we have outgrown that investment and our economic prosperity and security is threatened with high energy prices.

TVA, BPA brought cheap energy and jobs to help build the rest of the infrastructure. We once had a highway system that was the envy of the world. Now we should stop at some bridges and jump up and down on them to see if they are going to collapse. We no longer invest in our infrastructure and created jobs we hand out checks.

Three or four decades of ignoring our needs is now going to bite us in the behind.

Say, that is about the same amount of time since the introduction of the professional politician and our allowing the government to be controlled by special interests and their pet projects.

At least my pet project will return an investment to the rest of the country.

S'funny how the Norquist-ians go on about how 'the purpose of govt. is to cut taxes,' actually, the purpose of govt. is to RAISE taxes, not as in make them higher, but raise them, as in collect them. Such as, a group of homesteaders in Wyoming decide to have a school for their young-uns, they come together and decide how much monies to devote to that. At some point, contributing to that fund becomes a requirement for living in the community.

Imagine every single road and byway a toll road, with various exorbitant tolls and eccentric reasons for denying access to some. Oh yeah, that'd be nifty.

DieselAddict · #98 07-27-2008, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You must be a leader of the Optimist Club in NV. You see all the signs around you about the "help" they gave and you still think that their "help" won't screw up things. You were telling me about their hand in the military. Did you consider the purchasing that they have done? With systems the soldiers don't want and the complications and what not. Clean Air? Lets farm ethanol. Great idea. But still you think that their "help" is going to be simple and easy. OK. I suppose that if I bounced 100 checks with you you might still take a chance on Check #101?

I am saying that if we did nothing, the industry can grow on it's own. If we have govt "help", it would make things very complicated and might even choke it to death. Is that what you want? What have you seen the govt do that indicates this will be a quick, painless bit of help? I have yet to see anything, and maybe you can help me out here, that the govt has involved itself in that hasn't resulted in more cost, complications and other undesirable things.

What makes you so optimistic? Their great recent history? The promise of a quick, easy and painless boost? All you seem to say is "Govt involvement gets results.". Maybe in Europe it might. I don't know. Show me some of their history that hasn't involved problems generated after their "help". Maybe not today but tomorrow, it will come to bite us back in the butt.

You seem to be stuck in some permanent mental loop that's preventing you from understanding the simplicity of my proposal. OK let me put it another way. Let's have the government STOP helping the oil industry with special tax breaks that give it an unfair advantage over alternative energy. It's now one less thing they have to do. How's that? Did I make sense to you this time or do you actually support this preferential treatment of the oil industry but you don't want to admit it?

aklim · #99 07-27-2008, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Let's have the government STOP helping the oil industry with special tax breaks that give it an unfair advantage over alternative energy. It's now one less thing they have to do.

How's that? Did I make sense to you this time or do you actually support this preferential treatment of the oil industry but you don't want to admit it?

Now that I can stand behind 100%

I would be for the oil industry but I seem to have lost my oil stocks.

RichC · #**100** 07-27-2008, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Of course, what was I thinking -- this is energy that will be shipped out in tankers, not on an electrical grid.

Nice thing about these too, if they really pan out, you could have complexes of various sizes all over arid parts of the US, of which there are a goodly amount.

I only raise objection cuz the idea of having 10% of any state devoted to one thing is just not likely to happen -- even 1%.

.

That is why we aren't already using algae for energy.

It is too easily decentralized.

The only way large companies can make money is to have their
product centralized.
Like a coal burning plant, or a nuclear power plant.

You cannot make a whole lot of money by selling mini power plants
to individuals.

Big oil/energy depends on the centralized model to make all the money
that they do.

And that is how they keep us dependent.
The individual person is not able to drill for oil and refine it in his back yard.

But we can put up a windmill in the back yard.
Or a small algae farm.
Or a solar panel.

...

In many ways it is a modern day David verses Goliath story.

...

RichC

.

DieselAddict · #**101** 07-27-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Now that I can stand behind 100%

I would be for the oil industry but I seem to have lost my oil stocks.

OK so we can agree on something, that's good.

I do realize you think the govt is totally ineffective, but just keep in mind who in large part runs the govt: special interests (mostly powerful industries of the private sector). If they really thought that govt was ineffective do you think they'd waste time and money lobbying it? I'd have to say hell no. And that's the problem. The oil lobby is too powerful IMO to allow the govt to remove those special tax breaks. We can just hope that in time the alternative energy industry lobbies will grow strong enough to compete with the oil lobby over influencing the govt. I feel currently only the corn ethanol industry has some sway over our govt, but not the biodiesel industry.

Botnst · #**102** 07-27-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

OK so we can agree on something, that's good.

I do realize you think the govt is totally ineffective, but just keep in mind who in large part runs the govt: special interests.....

Let's assume you are correct. If the government is incapable of resisting the siren call of special interests, why is it a good idea to give the government even more power?

B

DieselAddict · #**103** 07-27-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Let's assume you are correct. If the government is incapable of resisting the siren call of special interests, why is it a good idea to give the government even more power?

B

Did I say we should give the govt more power??

Botnst · #**104** 07-27-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Did I say we should give the govt more power??

Are you in favor of universal health care?

B

DieselAddict · #**105** 07-27-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Are you in favor of universal health care?

B

Yes, but AFAIK this will not give the govt more power. It will in fact lead to more competition. Now the health insurance companies will be competing with the govt's own health plan. How's that bad? If you don't like the govt's health plan, don't use it. Actually if you already have employer-based insurance you might not even qualify. The details haven't been set yet, obviously.