Looks like we might have a solution ( 11:30 am ) - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**106** 09-30-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

And it's not our enemy either. Again move to Somalia if you want no government at all.

In the history of humanity, every government that has ever existed eventually became an enemy of its own people. The time frames differ.

Botnst · #**107** 09-30-2008, 10:40 PM

An analysis by statistician Nate Silver, who runs FiveThirtyEight.com, made this clear. Of the 38 incumbent members of Congress from both parties who are considered vulnerable in the coming election, 30 voted against the bill (eight supported it). By contrast, members of Congress from relatively safe districts were evenly divided - 197 for it to 198 against it.

DieselAddict · #**108** 10-01-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

In the history of humanity, every government that has ever existed eventually became an enemy of its own people. The time frames differ.

Maybe so, but in almost every case people replaced the government with a different one instead of embracing anarchy.

DieselAddict · #**109** 10-01-2008, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So where does this bailout come? Where does Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac come?

I'm kind of undecided on the bail out. I'd need more info to have a stronger opinion. Specifically I'd need to know how bad the credit crunch is and how badly it's going to affect the economy as a whole. I know there are pros and cons. Of course I'd also like to see what led to this mess fixed, but that's a separate issue. Ditto on Fannie and Freddie. It was overdone, but I did make a lot of money from my real estate purchase thanks to them, at least on paper. To me such issues are never completely black or white.

MS Fowler · #**110** 10-01-2008, 06:49 AM

If they are going to do a bailout, why not give every America citizen who has a mortgage a flat amount toward that obligation? Maybe those of us with moderate houses would be able to fully pay off our mortgages. All that fresh capital would help grow the economy-- and help me, incidentally.

Botnst · #**111** 10-01-2008, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Maybe so, but in almost every case people replaced the government with a different one instead of embracing anarchy.

True, the outcomes vary. But that's after the betrayal and oppression.

aklim · #**112** 10-01-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Maybe so, but in almost every case people replaced the government with a different one instead of embracing anarchy.

Somehow I don't think anybody here wants anarchy. I, for one, don't see having less govt intrusion and making people take responsibility for their lives as anarchy. OK, maybe we don't have a way for people to raise a military or have a standards institute, etc, etc and so we need to have govt there like a person dying from cancer needs chemo. OTOH, do we need to have the govt protect us from each and every downfall that comes in life? Where is personal responsibility?

aklim · #**113** 10-01-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I'm kind of undecided on the bail out. I'd need more info to have a stronger opinion. Specifically I'd need to know how bad the credit crunch is and how badly it's going to affect the economy as a whole. I know there are pros and cons. Of course I'd also like to see what led to this mess fixed, but that's a separate issue.

Ditto on Fannie and Freddie. It was overdone, but I did make a lot of money from my real estate purchase thanks to them, at least on paper. To me such issues are never completely black or white.

You forgot one more thing. When will this bailout come back to bite us in the ass and how badly.

Yes, you made money but now the thing is back to bite you and everyone else is also in the mess whether they made money or not. For you it might have been worthwhile but on the whole, I am not sure that it was. Like a payday loan. You save a few bucks today but tomorrow, you get shafted deeper. Was it worth it? Like I have said before, once govt gets involved in an item, it is like herpes. You aren't getting rid of it and sooner or later, an outbreak happens.

MS Fowler · #**114** 10-01-2008, 09:16 AM

More stuff to consider.
Fiat currency ALWAYS ends up as worthless. When governments ( any government) can simply inflate the money supply they will do it.
Consider this--compared to 1900, today's dollar has $.04 of value!
So that $100,000 a year job that you have today, has only the buying power of $4000 in 1900 currency.
Has this really been progress? Henry Ford's remarkable $5 day would be $125 day in today's dollars--OK, not quite as the $5 day was not implemented until the 1920s--but its still close enough to depress me!
Would going back onto the GOLD standard really be impossible?
It would take the FED's regulating of the money supply completely out of the loop. Would that be a good thing, a bad thing, or not even conceivable?
No answers; just questions.

aklim · #**115** 10-01-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

It would take the FED's regulating of the money supply completely out of the loop. Would that be a good thing, a bad thing, or not even conceivable?

I would think the good part is that the feds would be out of the regulating loop. Considering the "excellent" job they are doing managing money, I think it would be good. The bad part would be that they would have to tell you the ugly truth. Can we live with the truth or do we need our illusions? Would it be conceivable? Not if you were a politician trying to promise people things.

MS Fowler · #**116** 10-01-2008, 11:47 AM

" The truth?, You can't handle the truth!"

Hatterasguy · #**117** 10-01-2008, 01:45 PM

Actualy $5 a day in 1920 would be $51.35. Which isn't for an 8 hour work day with two breaks and lunch. That works out to $6.42 an hour. Whats a factory job worth? Probably $15-$25 an hour.

I agree though, less taxes to back then. No income tax for example.

DieselAddict · #**118** 10-02-2008, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Somehow I don't think anybody here wants anarchy. I, for one, don't see having less govt intrusion and making people take responsibility for their lives as anarchy. OK, maybe we don't have a way for people to raise a military or have a standards institute, etc, etc and so we need to have govt there like a person dying from cancer needs chemo. OTOH, do we need to have the govt protect us from each and every downfall that comes in life? Where is personal responsibility?

I like personal responsibility. Unfortunately I can't be responsible for analyzing everything I buy for hidden poisons. I also can't be responsible for making sure every building I enter or every bridge I cross is structurally safe. That's why we need standards and regulations. Personal responsibility has nothing to do with what I was saying.

DieselAddict · #**119** 10-02-2008, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

You forgot one more thing. When will this bailout come back to bite us in the ass and how badly.

Yes, you made money but now the thing is back to bite you and everyone else is also in the mess whether they made money or not. For you it might have been worthwhile but on the whole, I am not sure that it was. Like a payday loan. You save a few bucks today but tomorrow, you get shafted deeper. Was it worth it? Like I have said before, once govt gets involved in an item, it is like herpes. You aren't getting rid of it and sooner or later, an outbreak happens.

Yes I made money from this and I'm still ahead, but I'm not saying what happened was good. Like I said it went too far and a lot of people, especially Wall Street, got drunk on it. The answer is not less regulation. The answer is good regulation. If you think the answer is less regulation, think what happened during the Great Depression. The market can do incredibly stupid things on its own.

DieselAddict · #**120** 10-02-2008, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

More stuff to consider.
Fiat currency ALWAYS ends up as worthless. When governments ( any government) can simply inflate the money supply they will do it.
Consider this--compared to 1900, today's dollar has $.04 of value!
So that $100,000 a year job that you have today, has only the buying power of $4000 in 1900 currency.
Has this really been progress? Henry Ford's remarkable $5 day would be $125 day in today's dollars--OK, not quite as the $5 day was not implemented until the 1920s--but its still close enough to depress me!
Would going back onto the GOLD standard really be impossible?
It would take the FED's regulating of the money supply completely out of the loop. Would that be a good thing, a bad thing, or not even conceivable?
No answers; just questions.

The Gold Standard was abandoned by the whole world decades ago. From what I know it was too inflexible and volatile, leading to frequent instability whenever gold prices changed.