Yes, being admittedly a little left of center would make me slightly biased, but not much. Just because I debate the extremists doesn't make me one.

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1993 300E 2.8 185k miles
2006 Mustang Convertible 4.0 Eaton Supercharged

The central gov is exerting it's authority: Proof that the surge worked.

Actually, the central govt is now able to try exerting it's authority because the surge calmed things down a little because the surge is working in that respect. If things were as chaotic as it was before the surge, I doubt the central govt will be able to exert anything short of itself to do anything worthwhile or even in this direction. I would agree that the surge is working in a good direction.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
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Working at what? The default mode of Iraqis is 'milk the infidel for all he's worth.' They're using us for their ends. We're paying Sunnis not to attack Shia's and, I'll bet, vicey versa.

No closer to coming home, still bleeding massive $$$.

If we use federal funds to increase the police force of any major US city by 20%, oh yeah, more bad guys will be rounded up, crime will go down. But that would be unsustainable. Just as our entire tar baby entrapment in Iraq is unsustainable.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

They are a lot closer to standing on their own today than before the surge. The sooner they are able to stand on their own, the sooner we are done. Where is the dispute? You keep saying it won't work. Yet so far it is working. So far, things are moving in the right direction.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I gotta say that's the rosiest reading I could've imagined without booze.

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1984 300TD

Stand on their own?!? The Sunni/Shia split has been going on, violently, for some 13 + centuries. A buncha infidels dropping bombs while wearing expensive gear is not going to change that. Who is standing on their own and which other faction are they plotting to attack as we speak?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

The govt is more stable today than it was a couple of years back or are you denying that?

Not too long ago, you kept pointing out that things were going from bad to worse. Fair enough. Now things are getting better and moving in the direction you said they weren't going. Yet, you still find something to grumble about. Somehow, I think you want it to fail to the point that even if it succeeds, you will find something about it to ***** about. If the Sunni/Shia split closes and they become friends, you probably will say "See, there are 3 Sunni Kids and 4 Shia kids fighting in the playground. That is why I said it would never work.". So what is your agenda?

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I'm afraid it will take another strongman, someone like Saddam, to keep the Sunni/Shia split from erupting once we leave, whenever that is. Talk about a wasted effort. In the meantime, AQ is delighted that we're bleeding 10 billion a month on this adventure.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Why would that be a wasted effort? As long at that strongman will toe the line with us, why would it be bad? Saddam was a good strongman until he decided he didn't need to heed what we were saying and do things that were against our interests.

I'm sure they will be even more delighted if we packed up and go without leaving somebody there that will handle things the way we need things done.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

It's a wasted effort because Saddam could have been converted to our side if all you wanted was a strongman toeing the line with us. We could have sat down with him and made a deal just like we made a deal with the Sunni insurgents if it wasn't for Bush's insisting on regime change. It would have been much cheaper that way.

I doubt AQ will be delighted if we leave, especially if another unsympathetic strongman takes over Iraq. AQ was clearly delighted when we got bogged down in Iraq. Don't you get it? They know they can't defeat the US militarily but they believe they can economically and that's what they're trying to do. They hope we stay and spend as much money as possible. Plus they know once we leave Iraq we'll have more resources to focus on their base along the Pakistani/Afghan border.

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Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Saddam was on "our" side. How do you think he got in power? The problem is he wanted off "our" side. The agenda was to split Iraq into 3 parts, why would a dictator allow that? Al Qaeda is another example of folks on "our" side simply fulfilling contracts for the US government. Nothing is wrong in Iraq, it's going exactly as planned.

I think we tried the deal thing and Saddam has shown he would not toe the line so we need another guy there that won't step on our toes.

But they will be delighted if a weak group is left in charge because they can overrun that party.

Problem is that in Afghanistan we have all the resources we need. We are not hurting for resources. Willpower, yes. If we had half their willpower, we could have wiped them off the slate.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Saddam was on our side in the 80's when we backed him against Iran. He was fine with that and didn't want off our side. The problem is he miscalculated the US reaction to his invasion of Kuwait. We had problems with him since then, but that doesn't mean a deal couldn't have been reached. The agenda never was to split Iraq, only to protect the minorities in the north and south that sided against him during the first Gulf War. AQ is a whole other mess, and yes their predecessors were our friends in the 80's as well. Talk about major blowback. If only the US minded its own business...

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Actually, Saddam offered to surrender. They turned him down and started bombing.