The surge is working . . . oh yeah - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

tankdriver · #31 10-28-2008, 04:55 PM

The surge cannot work. Things may be a little less violent than they were, but that is only temporary.

It cannot work because the Iraqis have to step up, unless we plan to be there forever, in which case the violence will return, exponentially. The Iraqis will have a harder time stepping up if they have no pressure to do so. Our continued presence hampers their desire and ability to self defend and self police. We may have stopped sinking for a little while, but we're still swimming in circles.

If we truly wanted to help them with their infrastructure and then get out, we'd open those infrastructure bids to a global range of companies. Let Indian companies build the schools. French companies build the electricity grids. Italians build the roads. Etc. and so on.

mwood · #32 10-28-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

The surge cannot work. Things may be a little less violent than they were, but that is only temporary.

It cannot work because the Iraqis have to step up, unless we plan to be there forever, in which case the violence will return, exponentially. The Iraqis will have a harder time stepping up if they have no pressure to do so. Our continued presence hampers their desire and ability to self defend and self police. We may have stopped sinking for a little while, but we're still swimming in circles.

If we truly wanted to help them with their infrastructure and then get out, we'd open those infrastructure bids to a global range of companies. Let Indian companies build the schools. French companies build the electricity grids. Italians build the roads. Etc. and so on.

Maybe you can get a Cabinet position in the Obama administration. Sounds like you have it all figured out.

aklim · #33 10-28-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

The surge cannot work. Things may be a little less violent than they were, but that is only temporary.

It cannot work because the Iraqis have to step up, unless we plan to be there forever, in which case the violence will return, exponentially. The Iraqis will have a harder time stepping up if they have no pressure to do so. Our continued presence hampers their desire and ability to self defend and self police. We may have stopped sinking for a little while, but we're still swimming in circles.

If we truly wanted to help them with their infrastructure and then get out, we'd open those infrastructure bids to a global range of companies. Let Indian companies build the schools. French companies build the electricity grids. Italians build the roads. Etc. and so on.

If you can't get a temporary moment or two to get your act together, you may never do that.

Yes, you can give them pressure to step up. However, just pressure alone will not do it.

Why? Our blood there. We let US companies go in first. Allies 2nd. Scraps to the rest of the world.

tankdriver · #34 10-28-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

Maybe you can get a Cabinet position in the Obama administration. Sounds like you have it all figured out.

It's not that hard to figure out. Which makes Bushcheney and McCain that much worse.
I wonder how peaceable Americans would be if they were invaded. I wonder why it's surprising the Iraqis feel the same way as we would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

If you can't get a temporary moment or two to get your act together, you may never do that.

It ridiculous to call a lull to catch your breath success in war. They will never accept perpetual American presence. You get a quiet week, month, or even a year, it's not going to last.

Quote:

Yes, you can give them pressure to step up. However, just pressure alone will not do it.

They will or they won't. Being the crutch, and a despised one at that, will only inevitably drag you down with them.

Quote:

Why? Our blood there. We let US companies go in first. Allies 2nd. Scraps to the rest of the world.

Why allow everyone to bid? Well, I guess it depends. If you want to keep bleeding and dying and spending for the longest time possible, then yes keep it all for yourself - scratch that, for a small group of private concerns. If you want to help them, get them on their feet, and do it as fast as possible so you can save the lives of your troops and save everyone tens of billions of dollars you can use to help yourselves, then invite more people to the party. It takes me about an hour to go to my parents' house and cut their grass. I wonder how much time I could save if someone else cut the back while I did the front.

aklim · #35 10-28-2008, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

It ridiculous to call a lull to catch your breath success in war. They will never accept perpetual American presence. You get a quiet week, month, or even a year, it's not going to last.

They will or they won't. Being the crutch, and a despised one at that, will only inevitably drag you down with them.

If you want to help them, get them on their feet, and do it as fast as possible so you can save the lives of your troops and save everyone tens of billions of dollars you can use to help yourselves, then invite more people to the party.

A lull to catch your breath is necessary for them to get their act together. I don't think I would call it a success on the whole.

But if you remove the crutch too soon before the leg has a chance to heal, you only end up breaking the leg further.

The question is whether we are not going as fast as possible because of the insurgents or whether we don't have the people to do the jobs. IF we need companies that we don't have, by all means, let them in. If we already have the companies to do the job, why should we let them in?

cmac2012 · #36 10-28-2008, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

It'll come back at us one way or another, inevitably, there is nowhere to hide. Your recommendation to go somewhere else is pure pulp fiction.

I am beginning to seriously doubt your comprehensive capabilities.

There is an indefinite number of variables involved, making it a matter of impossibility to determine whether or not the surge has worked. With a remainder of that many variables, it can be conclusively asserted that at best, it works at the moment, but without any guarantee of permanent stability

There is one guarantee: more money and blood spent, more deeply entrenched.

cmac2012 · #37 10-28-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

When a reporter goes into a story with a strong political bias the outcome of the story is very predictable. Because this one reporter says levels of violence are the same as they were in 2003 that makes it so? You show your ignorance by parroting everything the liberal media prints. Try thinking for your self and considering the fact there are always two sides to every story/spin. You always come down on the side of the left with no consideration that there may be an agenda. And you call me ignorant.

The side of the left? I read various sources and come to the most accurate conclusion I can. You've spent longer explaining why you don't want to read the OP than it would have taken to read it. Perhaps you're concerned about the purity of your bias.

You know nothing of the man's political bias. The Chron's only full time columnist is conservative Debra Saunders, and she's some kind of winger, I'll tell you.

His piece is not the first time I've heard this info. The other side of the story you refer to has its own bias: the deeply rooted belief that we are the good guys and that if we keep at this long enough, truth, justice, and the American way will come out on top. Heroic mythology first, thinking on one's feet, second.

mwood · #38 10-28-2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The side of the left? I read various sources and come to the most accurate conclusion I can. You've spent longer explaining why you don't want to read the OP than it would have taken to read it. Perhaps you're concerned about the purity of your bias.

You know nothing of the man's political bias. The Chron's only full time columnist is conservative Debra Saunders, and she's some kind of winger, I'll tell you.

His piece is not the first time I've heard this info. The other side of the story you refer to has its own bias: the deeply rooted belief that we are the good guys and that if we keep at this long enough, truth, justice, and the American way will come out on top. Heroic mythology first, thinking on one's feet, second.

I have no bias, I've explained my views on extremists whether it's left or right. You are a lost cause; the Limbaugh of the Left. Diss...missed!

Honus · #39 10-28-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

I have no bias...

Everybody has bias, including you.

cmac2012 · #40 10-28-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

I have no bias, I've explained my views on extremists whether it's left or right. You are a lost cause; the Limbaugh of the Left. Diss...missed!

Woe is me . . . I am a beaten, ruined man.

cmac2012 · #41 10-28-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Everybody has bias, including you.

His claiming otherwise is telling.

Jim B. · #42 10-28-2008, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwood

I have no bias, I've explained my views on extremists whether it's left or right. You are a lost cause; the Limbaugh of the Left. Diss...missed!

This *really* takes the cake

UFB

DieselAddict · #43 10-29-2008, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

The surge cannot work. Things may be a little less violent than they were, but that is only temporary.

It cannot work because the Iraqis have to step up, unless we plan to be there forever, in which case the violence will return, exponentially.

I would say the surge cannot "work" because Iraq was the wrong place to invade to begin with. It never had anything to do with the actual war on terror. It was a disastrous strategic blunder that took our focus off Afghanistan where the real battle against terrorism is still raging today. The surge can only "work" in the sense of hopefully undoing some of the damage from the blunder.

Botnst · #44 10-29-2008, 07:07 AM

The surge is working.

Get over it.

tankdriver · #45 10-29-2008, 11:47 AM

Today in Iraq:
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2008/03/25/today_in_iraq_23/

"The Maliki government appears to be moving against Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army in Basra, Baghdad and perhaps elsewhere. Heavy fighting is reported by the New York Times"
"My intelligence sources have told me in the past that we don't know nearly enough about the southern Shi'ite factions--we've been fighting and wooing Sunnis in the north for the past five years"

Sunday:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/26/iraq.main/index.html