Does everything happen for a reason? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #31 12-19-2008, 09:53 PM

On a related point, my Turkish Muslim friends won't buy insurance because it is based on a denial that everything happens for a reason. (What they say is that insurance assumes that things happen by chance as opposed to happening because Allah wills it).
Are they right? Does buying insurance imply denying that things happen for a reason?

Chad300tdt · #32 12-19-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

On a related point, my Turkish Muslim friends won't buy insurance because it is based on a denial that everything happens for a reason. (What they say is that insurance assumes that things happen by chance as opposed to happening because Allah wills it).
Are they right? Does buying insurance imply denying that things happen for a reason?

Things can happen for a reason and still cost you money. You buy insurance for a reason too.

Botnst · #33 12-19-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

On a related point, my Turkish Muslim friends won't buy insurance because it is based on a denial that everything happens for a reason. (What they say is that insurance assumes that things happen by chance as opposed to happening because Allah wills it).
Are they right? Does buying insurance imply denying that things happen for a reason?

Only if one assumes God can't handle the concept of probability.

Or maybe our concept of probability is based on a myopic view of the universe -- it is so complex that we are incapable of differentiating a complex machine from a random machine. see randomness argument, above.

B

kerry · #34 12-19-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Dialing Kuan ...

IIRC, randomness is unprovable. In every case of assumed randomness the only denial of the proposition is through exhaustive testing until a pattern is revealed. But lack of pattern may mean that the phenomenon is random or it may just mean the n+1 case needs to be tested. There are algorithms that it can be proven would take more time than entropy has allotted to the universe in order to test every possible pattern in order to prove randomness. An aleph-1 problem in Cantor's notation, IIRC.

So we must take the case of randomness vs nonrandomness on faith, as we must the provability of reality.

The rest is arithmetic.

I think my question is a little different. Rolling dice has a pattern in the long term but the chance of any particular roll turning out a certain way is predictable only as a probability. Are you saying there are not probable events? Are you saying that we don't know if there are probable events? Aren't many of our practices based on the assumption that there are probable events. Is this strictly a matter of faith?

kerry · #35 12-19-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Only if one assumes God can't handle the concept of probability.

B

Allah does not deal well with probability because it implies his will is not determined.

kerry · #36 12-19-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad300tdt

Things can happen for a reason and still cost you money. You buy insurance for a reason too.

The reason being that you don't want to suffer the economic loss that Allah has willed for you.

Botnst · #37 12-19-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Allah does not deal well with probability because it implies his will is not determined.

Unless Allah knows that our concept of probability is limited; Allah knows that the reality he created is far richer than we can ever know.

kerry · #38 12-19-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Unless Allah knows that our concept of probability is limited; .

Wouldn't this be that our concept of probability is an illusion?
Does this mean that Pascal's Wager is actually the death of God?

Chad300tdt · #39 12-19-2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

The reason being that you don't want to suffer the economic loss that Allah has willed for you.

It that was truly his will, then the policy would be found invalid.

How could we alter his will with day to day decisions unless he wasn't orchestrating reasons for all things?

That type of reasoning makes me think that ANY decision you make involving a preparation/planning of some sort should be considered against Allah then.

Botnst · #40 12-19-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Wouldn't this be that our concept of probability is an illusion?
Does this mean that Pascal's Wager is actually the death of God?

From the human perspective, the limited, finite, temporal.

"I am that I am" is unlimited, infinite and timeless. His perspective is infinitely unattainable by us. We are integers on a real number line. Aleph null in an aleph 1 universe, created by an aleph 2 entity.

I'm thinking of William Blake's, "Auguries of Innocence."

kerry · #41 12-19-2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

From the human perspective, the limited, finite, temporal.

"I am that I am" is unlimited, infinite and timeless. His perspective is infinitely unattainable by us. We are integers on a real number line. Aleph null in an aleph 1 universe, created by an aleph 2 entity.

I'm thinking of William Blake's, "Auguries of Innocence."

So why bother attempting to understand the world (which leads to manipulating the world)?

Botnst · #42 12-19-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

So why bother attempting to understand the world (which leads to manipulating the world)?

Why bother living if all we can expect is death?

The key to the treasure is the treasure.

kerry · #43 12-19-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad300tdt

It that was truly his will, then the policy would be found invalid.

How could we alter his will with day to day decisions unless he wasn't orchestrating reasons for all things?

That type of reasoning makes me think that ANY decision you make involving a preparation/planning of some sort should be considered against Allah then.

I agree. Taking an aspirin is equally as sinful as buying insurance. Both are attempts to overrule Allah. Submit you smarmy little bastard!