I think causes and reasons are different things. Causes don't require consciousness. The cause of my car not starting was a dead battery. A reason is something that requires mental activity and intention. The reason Bill killed Bob was because he was jealous.
So I think it's possible to believe everything is caused without believing that everything happens for a reason.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Nor did I. But if everything happens for a reason, this must mean we have no control over what we do. We can't choose to stand up or sit down, it will have been chosen for us already. Therefor we have no free will.

__________________
2009 ML320 Bluetec
1985 300CD
1981 300TD

Past Mercedes
1979 300TD
1982 300TD
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1998 E430
1984 300SD
1980 300SD

I'll have to think about this statement for awhile. Can't quite wrap my head around it yet.

__________________
2009 ML320 Bluetec
1985 300CD
1981 300TD

Past Mercedes
1979 300TD
1982 300TD
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1998 E430
1984 300SD
1980 300SD

Maybe some are weak enough where they need coping mechanisms. Why not just leave it at that? It happened and it's undesirable. That's life. Move on.

Same could be said about psychologists and psychiatrists.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

That is called FAITH.

__________________
1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

I could have sworn I heard a tree fall in a forest somewhere . . .

YES IT DOES. I allways wondered why I bought a Benz and joined a site and posted there for four years., until I met a friend in need. I was able to help him get on the right track. He is doing fine now.

__________________
For the Saved, this world is the worst it will ever get.
For the unSaved, this world is the best it will ever get.

Clk's Ebay Stuff BUY SOMETHING NOW!!!

I can agree with that.

__________________
2015 ML350 4Matic. Wifes DD
2015 GLK350 4Matic. My winter DD
2012 E350 4Matic. Road Trip car
2009 CLK350 Coupe Designo.Kleemann Tune For nice days/DD
2006 CL600. V12.Eurocharged Tune. Enough said
2005 CLK55 AMG Coupe.Kleemann Tune. For the sound and style
2004 CLK320 Cabriolet. 2005+ Interior swap. For the sunny Florida days & beach days

How would we know if everything happened for a reason? Can we describe what a universe would be like in which everything did happen for a reason as compared to a universe in which everything didn't happen for a reason?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Doesn't matter if there's a woman around to hear it, you're still wrong.

You'll have to trust me on that.

I don't think we can.

I think we could describe the exact same universe twice. The first time we describe it we could say in this universe everything happens for a reason. Then we could re-describe the exact same universe and say in this universe things happen randomly.

On the outside appearance there would be no way to tell universe 1 from universe 2. Only if you had some sort of 'inside knowledge' (for lack of a better term besides divine knowledge) would you know in which universe did things happen for a reason and in which things happened randomly.

In both examples everything happens exactly the same. Because of that there is no way of telling if things happen for a reason in this universe or not.

__________________
2009 ML320 Bluetec
1985 300CD
1981 300TD

Past Mercedes
1979 300TD
1982 300TD
2000 E320 4Matic Wagon
1998 E430
1984 300SD
1980 300SD

Man, I like that. Nice job!

For any system to be provable from a scientific point of view the observer has to be able to stand outside of the system she is studying. This is to prevent observer biases or influences. Thus, to prove the existence of reality the observer must stand outside of it. But that is not possible (or if it is possible, only one "person" has ever returned from it).

Would there be any probability at all in a universe in which everything happened for a reason? Probability relies on the idea of chance. Could there be such a thing as a chance in a universe following reason? (reminds me of the film, The Music of Chance)

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

All I can say is: string theory explains this.
And why some people who like Benzes also like Citorens.

__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

Dialing Kuan ...

IIRC, randomness is unprovable. In every case of assumed randomness the only denial of the proposition is through exhaustive testing until a pattern is revealed. But lack of pattern may mean that the phenomenon is random or it may just mean the n+1 case needs to be tested. There are algorithms that it can be proven would take more time than entropy has allotted to the universe in order to test every possible pattern in order to prove randomness. An aleph-1 problem in Cantor's notation, IIRC.

So we must take the case of randomness vs nonrandomness on faith, as we must the provability of reality.

The rest is arithmetic.