Agreed, but the key is in the weather-stripping of the historic sash, they can be made as tight as a new unit, inch for inch. However, as you have pointed out, the size (lineal feet @ perimeter of sash) will make a difference.

Just makes me crazy to see these wonderful old buildings "plasticized", completely destroying the architectural integrity for limited, short term benefit.

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

The wood dh in my old house have a very sophisticated system of copper and galvanized weatherstripping and interlocking devices to stop air infiltration, much more comprehensive than the new plastic thingies which will break off in ten years or so.

I really detest it too...especially when folks plop a new smaller window in an opening and build down to it....ugh!

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I just finished the scope for a brick apartment building in a nearby town where they had downsized from 3-0X6-6 to about 2-6X3-4 and infilled the balance of the openings with OSB. We are tearing out the garbage and replicating the original sash. Owner had seen the transformation when we did a similar project nearby and requested the work. There is hope

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

Great!

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Well guys, I bought a 1907 Queen Anne with wonderfull 6 foot high DH wood windows in various conditions. Windows leak air like you would not believe. Some can actually rattle. Electric baseboard heat. Short term goal is to keep the heat in this winter. Trying that heat shrink palstic inside the windows for now. Long term is to rehab the windows. I want to keep house as close to original as possible (with subtle improvements in sealing and whatnot). If you have some neat weather stripping system I am all ears.

You would want to check out the Secretary of the Interior's Standards for the Rehabilitation of Historic Structures; lots of information.

There are many options for weather stripping, from the brass type that Tom referred to earlier, to the more modern and arguably more effective "felt" or "bulb" types used on new windows (mounted on the stops, meeting rail, head of top sash, and bottom of lower sash).

I rehab'ed the windows in my 125 year old home thirty five years ago, and have yet to weather strip them (one of those things I never seem to get to). Have been working my way around the house (32 windows - 34" X 84", round top) for the last four years reglazing and performing minor repairs, should be the last time I have to do it if I die when I ought to. Simply adjusting the stops and the sash locks on the meeting rails can make a world of difference.

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

This seems like a difference in customer income class. Most of my customers are solidly middle and middle to upper class and in homes that are 30-50yrs old. Restoring a single pane from that era doesn't make sense. 95% of the windows I have done are Andersen. They have a great warranty, great customer service and they last very well. Currently I perform all maintenance/rehab work on a multi-million dollar waterfront condo complex. The place was built in the '80's with Andersens. With virtually no care in the worst possible environment, ocean exposure, the Andersens are now starting to fail. Not the weatherstripping mind you, just some of the double glass seals and tension strings. Not a bad run for a product requiring little attention. No way you could do this with a traditional single pane double hung wood window. The maintenance would be obscene.

The times I have worked on 100+year old buildings and restored windows the labor cost was quite high. It would have been cheaper to swap out to new customs if the hysterical society would have allowed it.

I have done 9-10 custom bay/bow window replacements from wood single pane to a custom build from a company in Maine called Paradigm. There is simply no comparison. I have a custom Paradigm bay in my house. The living room was unusable in winter before I made the change. Not that the old window leaked, it was well maintained, just radiated cold into the room. Paradigm can make any size you want and often the cost is quite reasonable in situations where the framing would have to be changed to accomodate an "off the rack" window.

Historical buildings are fine for restoration but I work on normal homes that normal people live in and they have no desire to deal with old style windows.

RT

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

Not the windows, but I have replaced my front door. I put a Feather River fiberglass door in that looks like Oak. It's pretty nice and really seals out the cold well.

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

I'm keeping the original windows and storm sashes.I just plasticise 'em and keep the thermostat down to 59,supplemented with wood and coal fires in the 3 stoves.

Right now I'm sittin'on the ring in the 3rd floor W.C. and I can feel the cold air wafting up to my,well,you-know-whats.

__________________

The problem with most double paned windows is their appearance. I have the old type, divided lite windows on my house. I'd hate the way it would look with thermal windows even though I would save a lot of money on gas.

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

Jesus Christmas. I dunno whats worse. Keeping the T-stat at 59 or the fact that you are posting from the throne! Dude, put the laptop down before going to the crapper. The forum will be there when you get done....

RT

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K

B,but,it came with a wireless card?

__________________

I usually just make doo with a good magazine or something . . . .

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

I wouldn't disagree with changing out 1980's windows, or for that matter anything newer than 1950. But, you have made my point in mentioning 25 year old windows that have to be replaced.
We live in one of the worst climates in the lower 48 and find that 100 year old windows, with virtually no maintenance, are only now beginning to fail. Although I realize that it is the "American Way", that new is better, I have a problem with substituting the new 10, 15, or 25 year product for the 100 year old, infinitely more appealing unit that will be around for another 100 years with a coat of paint every 15 years and replacement of the glazing compound every 25. That to me is minimal maintenance, certainly less than a regularly scheduled, full replacement every 10, 15 or 25 years (depending on the quality of the "new" crap.

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

While I understand your position and why I think that maybe you don't understand mine. Most of my work is coastal RI, South Kingstown and Narragansett. Look on a map you will see lots of coastline. That means salt air. Here an aluminum screen door lasts 10 years, tops. Most go maybe 5 years and are eaten apart from salt. Paint lasting 15 years? Holy crap, in my dreams, 4-5 years if you are lucky. Premium red cedar shingles last 15 years if left to "weather" Window glazing disintegrates in 6-7 years. Its almost impossible to keep door hardware, outside lighting, metal railings, etc. looking decent if not alive for more than a few years. Any lumber that is not backprimed, joints too, and seams caulked will check, cup, warp and pull of the building in 10 years. Properly installed 25-30 years is about it unless scrupulously maintained. Wrought iron railings disintegrate to scale in less than 10 years. Galvanized fasteners are worthless, stainless is the only acceptable method of fastening anything within a few miles of the ocean. You can do it your way, and many wealthy folks do. There is a veritable army of skilled "new england tradesmen" that cater to the mansion owners with the pockets to keep up with this work. Everybody else eventually comes around to synthetics. RT

__________________
When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
03' Volkswagen Jetta TDI blue/black, 93K
93' Chevrolet C2500HD ExCab 6.5TD, Two-tone blue, 252K