GM done for - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Pooka · #61 02-26-2009, 06:20 PM

Because the company offered millions of dollars to the suvivors to settle out of court so no details would come out. Most of the suvivors had received a settlement from their life insurance companies, so they were not hurting for money.

What they were hurting for was little bit of truth and open court was the best place to get it.

By the way, in the aftermath of the court cases the CEO of the company retired and hundreds of managers were let go.

To this date there have been few improvements in the safety of oil refineriy operations.

aklim · #62 02-26-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

Because the company offered millions of dollars to the suvivors to settle out of court so no details would come out. Most of the suvivors had received a settlement from their life insurance companies, so they were not hurting for money.

What they were hurting for was little bit of truth and open court was the best place to get it.

By the way, in the aftermath of the court cases the CEO of the company retired and hundreds of managers were let go.

To this date there have been few improvements in the safety of oil refineriy operations.

The question is this. Could the same results have happened WITHOUT a union being there? Seems to me like there or not there, the survivors got paid, supervisors got fired, etc, etc. All done in court. So what good is the union?

Pooka · #63 02-26-2009, 06:48 PM

The union is the only one pushing for more safety so this will not happen again. The companies have not shown a lot of intrest in this area nor has OSHA.

By the way, the CEO did not get fired; he quit in disgust. Imagine; you give people good jobs and just because you kill a few of them they get all huffy.

Who needs that type of aggravation?

The managers who were fired were mid-level types that are easily replaced, and firing a bunch of people looks good in the press. It makes people think you are really trying to do something about a problem.

Like I said before, the Union was recently pushing for more safety in the last contract talks and the companies turned them down flat.

I don't see anyone else trying to improve workplace safety conditions in any industry. Can you name one?

aklim · #64 02-26-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

The union is the only one pushing for more safety so this will not happen again. The companies have not shown a lot of intrest in this area nor has OSHA.

By the way, the CEO did not get fired; he quit in disgust. Imagine; you give people good jobs and just because you kill a few of them they get all huffy.

Who needs that type of aggravation?

The managers who were fired were mid-level types that are easily replaced, and firing a bunch of people looks good in the press. It makes people think you are really trying to do something about a problem.

Like I said before, the Union was recently pushing for more safety in the last contract talks and the companies turned them down flat.

I don't see anyone else trying to improve workplace safety conditions in any industry. Can you name one?

OK. So the union is pushing for this, that or the other. What's your point? Mine is they FAILED to get it done or it wouldn't have gotten to court, would it? So, there or not there, what would the difference be?

Pooka · #65 02-26-2009, 07:24 PM

The following post is not for those with weak hearts.

Good point. It is better to have no one pushing for safety than someone who gets it done slowly.

I love to sit around and hear the old timers talk about the days when people were scalded to death by steam releases or had their arms ripped from their bodies by machinery. One good story is about the time the old electrical tech leaned over to pick up screwdriver in a unprotected electrical area, contacted a 440 line with his metal hard hat and blew into lots of tiny pieces.

Ahh, the good old days. Short handled shovels so your back is killing you at the end of the day; metal ladders contacting overhead power lines and blowing your hands off....

Just the other day we were reminising about how you used to just have to hold your breath before entering an area contaminated with Hydrogen Sulfied. Lot of good death stories there. Now, due to the lousy Union bargaining powers, we have to wear air packs so we can breath while we work. And guess who has to pay for them? That's right. The company.

Of course there are some real gruesome stories involving fire, but there's not room for all of those here. You see enough of these things and you begin to wonder if there is not a better way to make the management listen to your point of view.

Try and think of getting ANY improvement in safety out of a large company as just like eating an elepahnt. You do it one bite at a time, and it just might take awhile.

Plantman · #66 02-26-2009, 08:27 PM

A bit off- topic, but in my area, a Chrysler dealer closed up it's old dealership and moved into a new state of the art one a few miles west of the old one.

I drive by it every day and NEVER see anyone walking on the lot. Not surprisingly, it closed about 6 mos or less after it opened. The sign on the door says, "due to the economy, we have to close our showroom. The service department will still remain open".

The showroom is closed down, there are several dozen cars on the property that are in storage. It looks like a scene from "I am legend".

Across the street, a 1 year old Lexus and a 3 month old Toyota dealer are struggling to stay open.

Has it occurred to anyone that like the newspapers who are closing down because of the internet, cars sales are affected the same way?

You can get a quote online by a dealership, or thru fleet sales and never have to talk to a salesman. The only guy who makes money is the "internet manager" or fleet manager. The guys standing on the floor are doing just that.
Standing. They don't get salaries, they get draws, AGAINST their commisions.

They days of walk up customers are a thing of the past.

At some point, you will be able to order online, and pick it up at a regional dropoff point or storage facility.

.05

MS Fowler · #67 02-26-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

A few comments back it was woundred about if Unions are needed to protect worker safety?

Yup. Check out how many people have been killed in oil refinery accidents during the past few years. I know of one instance where 14 deaths took place and this was after years of the Union pointing out how unsafe working condition were. Things were so bad that many survivors took their cases to court instead of taking a settlement. In court ALL the details came out. It was not a pretty sight.

The last Union talks for refinery workers also included safety reforms. The companies rejected these terms and told the Union to go ahead and strke.

My Union Relations Professor used to say, "Any company that has a Union deserves one."

In my experience more workers violate company safety protocols more often than companies forcing unsafe practices. With litigation always hanging over the company's head, they generally avoid unsafe practices. Or maybe I just work with more enlightened companies.

aklim · #68 02-26-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

Good point. It is better to have no one pushing for safety than someone who gets it done slowly.

Now, due to the lousy Union bargaining powers, we have to wear air packs so we can breath while we work.

And guess who has to pay for them? That's right. The company.

You see enough of these things and you begin to wonder if there is not a better way to make the management listen to your point of view.

No, the point is not that. Of course, pushing slowly is better than not pushing. However, once again, I don't see a difference between not pushing vs ineffective pushing. IOW, I don't care how hard you work. If you have no results, it matters little whether you sat under a tree and ate bon-bons or you pushed all day but nothing got done. Results count. Talking about how hard you worked is only for losers of the game to talk about.

IF there was a law about that, which I suspect is the case, how is the union solely responsible for it?

You sure about that? Sure it didn't come out of something else they bargained away?

Problem with a union situation is that you are already starting off with an adversarial situation. Kinda like if you and the wife divorce. You bring your lawyer and she brings hers. Her lawyer is going to ask for as much as he can get plus some. Your's will too. OTOH, if you two decide to split amicably, well, things are easier and cheaper.

aklim · #69 02-26-2009, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plantman

They days of walk up customers are a thing of the past.

Things change. However, there will still be a few old timers like say our parents that feel more comfortable with a human being.

When I was in school, we learned about this medical program that was able to diagnose cardiac issues with DOUBLE DIGIT accuracy over cardiologists. Why doesn't that take off? Patients don't feel as comfortable with a program diagnosis as opposed to a human doctor that is way less accurate

tankdriver · #70 02-26-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

No, the point is not that. Of course, pushing slowly is better than not pushing. However, once again, I don't see a difference between not pushing vs ineffective pushing. IOW, I don't care how hard you work. If you have no results, it matters little whether you sat under a tree and ate bon-bons or you pushed all day but nothing got done. Results count. Talking about how hard you worked is only for losers of the game to talk about.

What is the expected result of not doing anything?

Botnst · #71 02-26-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

What is the expected result of not doing anything?

What it ought to be: The company's and union's responsibility.

tankdriver · #72 02-26-2009, 10:34 PM

huh?

Fulcrum525 · #73 02-26-2009, 10:46 PM

hmm, if GM goes under there are probably going to be loads of unsold cars around that we'll be able to have all kinds of fun with...the possibilities are endless......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flKzjuDhFDs

4:15

aklim · #74 02-27-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

What is the expected result of not doing anything?

The same as trying but failing. I measure results. I don't care how much effort you put in if you fail. Like they say, "2nd place is the first loser". If you don't win, you lost even if you are 3rd or 2nd place. You lost, period. After admitting failure, you can go on to discuss how hard you tried, how much work you put in, yada, yada, yada.

raymr · #75 02-27-2009, 08:46 AM

It should be very interesting. GM is still burning through billions and the gov will supposedly extract our billions back out just before the dead carcass gets surrounded by vultures. How much you wanna bet that plan gets screwed up somehow?