Approving 'alternative interrogation methods' - Page 11 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #**151** 04-25-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

That's a value judgment you are entitled to make for yourself. What's missing is any evidence that torturing 20 people or 200 people would save any US soldiers.

So what would you want? Someone to tell you exactly what information was tortured out of someone and how it helped? Why would they waste resources and risk bad PR if there wasn't ANY info to be had? Because we had to do something with the sadists in the military?

aklim · #**152** 04-25-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

The experts who say that torture is not an effective method make more sense to me than do the experts on Dick Cheney's side of the issue.

I tend to think that their methods are the ones most likely to keep us safe.

And the fact that you don't care for DC or the idea of torture doesn't play a role in the decision as to which side to believe? What is it these experts suggest that we do? Take the time to get accurate information that is outdated? 6 month old intel is practically worthless. Knowing where say OBL WAS 6 months ago is worthless compared to knowing where he was 2 days ago. In one case, he might be anywhere. In the 2nd case, he could be gone but it would be easier to track a fresh scent as opposed to an old one.

Based on what? Unless you can assure me that NOTHING gained from the torture sessions was of value at all and it was a waste of resources, how can you be sure?

cmbdiesel · #**153** 04-25-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Unless you can assure me that NOTHING gained from the torture sessions was of value at all and it was a waste of resources, how can you be sure?

Unless you can assure me that SOMETHING of value was gained, why should we support it? Where is the assurance that we couldn't have gotten better intel through different means?

jplinville · #**154** 04-25-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

We'll take that as a "No I don't have any evidence"

That knife cuts both ways here too

jplinville · #**155** 04-25-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

I'm not in the interrogation business, so I have to rely on the opinion I hear and read from experts. The experts who say that torture is not an effective method make more sense to me than do the experts on Dick Cheney's side of the issue. They also have the law on their side. I tend to think that their methods are the ones most likely to keep us safe.

More to the point, though, you were the one who said:What is the source of your certainty?

Prior military service...I'll trust MY experts over yours

jplinville · #**156** 04-25-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Unless you can assure me that SOMETHING of value was gained, why should we support it? Where is the assurance that we couldn't have gotten better intel through different means?

By studying other country's forms on intel gathering

cmbdiesel · #**157** 04-25-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

By studying other country's forms on intel gathering

How does that give us assurance that it works?
How does being ex-military give you any idea of the effectiveness of torture? Were you a torturer?

To the topic, torture is illegal under US law, that is fact. It is against the law because most people would rather our country not engage in that activity. If you are in the minority of people who think it should be legal, your efforts at changing peoples minds would probably be better spent elsewhere. Here on Shopforum, most seem to be set in their opinion, and just as you are not going to change my mind, I am not going to change yours. So we agree to disagree. Fortunately for many, the non-torturing team has the ball right now, and I say let 'em run with it.

jplinville · #**158** 04-25-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

How does that give us assurance that it works?
How does being ex-military give you any idea of the effectiveness of torture? Were you a torturer?

To the topic, torture is illegal under US law, that is fact. It is against the law because most people would rather our country not engage in that activity. If you are in the minority of people who think it should be legal, your efforts at changing peoples minds would probably be better spent elsewhere. Here on Shopforum, most seem to be set in their opinion, and just as you are not going to change my mind, I am not going to change yours. So we agree to disagree. Fortunately for many, the non-torturing team has the ball right now, and I say let 'em run with it.

Tomato/Tomato
Potato/Potato
Torture/Alternative Interrogative Method
Black/White

See the pattern here?

aklim · #**159** 04-25-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Unless you can assure me that SOMETHING of value was gained, why should we support it?

Where is the assurance that we couldn't have gotten better intel through different means?

So, if you were a torturer, why would you do it? I mean, if all you get from the person is what movie is showing over at the community cinema, why would you do it? If time after time, all you get is absolute garbage, why would you go around doing something and looking like an idiot? Why would I ask you to lend me money if I know that every time I try it, I get shot down? Does that make sense to you?

Again, I'm sure you could have gotten better intel thru different means. The question is whether you get solid intel but it is outdated and worthless or not. Back before WWI, the British Admiralty used to think surface ships were the greatest. Submarines were looked down as being "un-British". There was a time where snipers were also looked down upon. Currently, we seem to think both have value.

Honus · #**160** 04-26-2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

Prior military service...I'll trust MY experts over yours

That's fine. I don't claim infallibility on any of this, but neither your military service nor your experts support this claim:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

...But, rest assured that many American lives have been saved by that information

Unless your experts have first hand knowledge.

My point is not so say that I know I'm right and you are wrong. My point is that there is no basis for the people advocating torture to say that the people opposing torture are thick-headed, as was said in a previous post. There are two sides to this issue. Being against torture doesn't mean that one values our national security less than someone who thinks torture is appropriate.

Honus · #**161** 04-26-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

And the fact that you don't care for DC or the idea of torture doesn't play a role in the decision as to which side to believe?...

Nice. What a great way to carry on a conversation.

Honus · #**162** 04-26-2009, 09:46 AM

Here's Frank Rich's opinion:

Quote:

...Five years after the Abu Ghraib revelations, we must acknowledge that our government methodically authorized torture and lied about it. But we also must contemplate the possibility that it did so not just out of a sincere, if criminally misguided, desire to “protect” us but also to promote an unnecessary and catastrophic war. Instead of saving us from “another 9/11,” torture was a tool in the campaign to falsify and exploit 9/11 so that fearful Americans would be bamboozled into a mission that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The lying about Iraq remains the original sin from which flows much of the Bush White House’s illegality...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/opinion/26rich.html?_r=1

I don't know if that is what happened, but the allegations are credible enough to warrant an investigation. A desire to move forward won't make allegations like that go away.

cmbdiesel · #**163** 04-26-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So, if you were a torturer, why would you do it? I mean, if all you get from the person is what movie is showing over at the community cinema, why would you do it? If time after time, all you get is absolute garbage, why would you go around doing something and looking like an idiot? Why would I ask you to lend me money if I know that every time I try it, I get shot down? Does that make sense to you?

Again, I'm sure you could have gotten better intel thru different means. The question is whether you get solid intel but it is outdated and worthless or not. Back before WWI, the British Admiralty used to think surface ships were the greatest. Submarines were looked down as being "un-British". There was a time where snipers were also looked down upon. Currently, we seem to think both have value.

Because you're a sadist?
Because you think it will demoralize your opponent?
Because it is a fear tactic?

Torture as a method of gathering intel is far older than submarines or snipers. The debate over torture's effectiveness has gone on for centuries, and time and again, civilized cultures determine that the down side of torture outweighs the positives.

aklim · #**164** 04-26-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Because you're a sadist?
Because you think it will demoralize your opponent?
Because it is a fear tactic?

Torture as a method of gathering intel is far older than submarines or snipers. The debate over torture's effectiveness has gone on for centuries, and time and again, civilized cultures determine that the down side of torture outweighs the positives.

Fair enough.
How will it if you don't blow it in their face all day long? IF you don't show video of torture of others to the enemy, I doubt it would work. But if it has a hint of working, I'm for it
Whatever works.

IF it were so ineffective, why would it have gone on for centuries? Are you still debating whether the sun goes around the earth or the earth around the sun? I think there is some merit to it. Whether the positive outweighs the negatives is a question of perspective. Do you need something ASAP or can it wait. If you can wait, sure, I wouldn't bother with getting such info. OTOH, if you need it ASAP, try to get what you can now. It might not be perfect but so what? IF you were dying of thirst, do you want dirty water today or clean water next month?

jplinville · #**165** 04-26-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

You know that information obtained through torture saved American lives? You have seen evidence of this?

If your only argument is that you can't see where it has saved American lives, you can now say that I have proven it.

http://cnsnews.com/public/Content/Article.aspx?rsrcid=46949

Tuesday, April 21, 2009
By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief

Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information -- after being waterboarded -- that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”