Approving 'alternative interrogation methods' - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #91 04-24-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

It's a shame if we're dropping our ideals like hot potatos because our enemy doesn't share them. So difficultly won, so easily given up. Trade ours for theirs, and we're sides of the same coin.

Also, if you think you can kill enough of them to give up their (perverted version of) religion, you are in for an everlasting struggle. Some motivations can't be killed away.

Ideals are simply words. An informal study of ideals is that it seems to matter when you have won the struggle and are alive and not the other end. What value does the ideal have to the dead?

The question is whether you have the will to win or not. They do, we don't. In a prolonged struggle, we will end up praying 5 times a day facing Mecca. That would already have happened had they had a level playing field with the same weapons we have.

aklim · #92 04-24-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

We may be the only side playing by the rules, but we will win despite that, and be better for it (I know, almost verbatim from the other thread, but it bears repeating)

Those who argue against the Geneva Conventions, is not the seal of our nation upon that document, the signed names of our representatives? Do you break written contracts in your day to day life? Is not the word of the US government to be worth anything? If we break the codes which we have agreed to adhere to, why would any other nation believe anything from us? What leadership to emerging democracies would we be providing? What right to call ourselves the greatest nation on earth, if we cannot abide by a document that is humanitarian at it's core, and that has our sworn commitment to abide?

And you know we will win because you watch movies where the good guy always wins and goes off riding into the sunset with the beautiful girl and they live happily ever after, right?

A contract is only good when both sides abide by it. Would you continue to supply me product because you signed a contract that said that you would send it ever month even in spite of the fact that payment, which I agreed to send, has ceased?

strelnik · #93 04-24-2009, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Ideals are simply words. An informal study of ideals is that it seems to matter when you have won the struggle and are alive and not the other end. What value does the ideal have to the dead?

The question is whether you have the will to win or not. They do, we don't. In a prolonged struggle, we will end up praying 5 times a day facing Mecca. That would already have happened had they had a level playing field with the same weapons we have.

X2.

I fear this could happen, because we are so indoctrinated to be unthinking that apathy and/or cluelessness passes for being tolerant. When push comes to shove it will be too late.

In Michigan, some Muslims have a campaign to replace Muslim law for secular law. They have several Internet .org sites.

It got a big setback recenlywhen the courts disagreed that saying " I divorce you" three times is all a guy needed to split with his wife, and that he couldn't have four of them at the same time in Michigan.

But they are still trying. And they won't stop.

I still like the idea of bringing Finns Quebeckers and Italians to Pakistan (see my other post)

Honus · #94 04-24-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

...The question is whether you have the will to win or not. They do, we don't...

Speak for yourself. I don't think history backs you up.

dynalow · #95 04-24-2009, 11:21 AM

US to Release Prisoner Abuse Photos
April 24, 2009
Mclatchy -Tribune News Service

WASHINGTON - The Obama administration agreed late Thursday to release dozens of photographs depicting alleged abuse of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan by U.S. personnel during the Bush administration.

At least 44 pictures will be released by May 28 - making public for the first time images of what the military investigated at facilities other than the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Defense Department officials would not say exactly what is contained in the photos, but said they are concerned the release could incite a backlash in the Middle East.

The photos, taken from Air Force and Army criminal investigations, are apparently not as shocking as the photographs from the Abu Ghraib investigation that became a lasting symbol of U.S. mistakes in Iraq. But some show military personnel intimidating or threatening detainees by pointing weapons at them. Military officers have been court-martialed for threatening detainees at gunpoint. (boo-hoo)

"This will constitute visual proof that, unlike the Bush administration's claim, the abuse was not confined to Abu Ghraib and was not aberrational," said Amrit Singh, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, which obtained the agreement as part of a long-running legal battle for documents related to Bush-era anti-terror policies.

The decision to release the photos comes as President Barack Obama is trying to quell a drive to investigate Bush administration moves against terrorism. But now the photos and a series of other possible disclosures stemming from the ACLU lawsuit threaten to add fuel to an already explosive controversy.
Additional disclosures to be considered in the coming weeks include transcripts of detainee interrogations by the CIA, a CIA inspector general's report that has been kept mostly secret, and background materials of a Justice Department internal investigation into prisoner abuse.

Last week, Obama opted to demand relatively few redactions when his administration released Justice Department memos detailing the Bush administration's justifications and strategies for harsh interrogations.

But those disclosures created a problem for the president, prompting Democratic lawmakers and advocacy interest groups to demand that Congress launch an investigation. With Obama trying to navigate ambitious legislation through Congress, the White House fears that such an investigation could become a highly partisan distraction - and Obama has already rejected the idea of a 9/11 commission-style review of Bush's anti-terror policies, according to an official.

Now, the president must consider the release of new materials that could be inflammatory. While the liberal base that elected him wants wide disclosure and an investigation of Bush administration practices, pursuing that course would likely alienate the intelligence and military communities that are crucial to his success as president.

"My sense is the president was trying to please a lot of audiences at one time and that over the last (week) he has totally failed to put the mind of the intelligence community at ease," said Mark Lowenthal, a former senior adviser to one-time CIA Director George Tenet. "He is going to end up with a national clandestine service that will not be willing to do anything because they feel he will not be there for them when they need him."
© Copyright 2009 Mclatchy -Tribune News Service. All

raymr · #96 04-24-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

These are tough questions, except the last one. The answer to that one is, "Hell no."

Those questions show why it is important for our leaders to be honest with us. Cheney says that aggressive interrogation saved American lives. If that is true, then it is an important point to consider. The problem is that Bush/Cheney, et al., have been caught in so, so many lies, their input has no value. None. It's as if we are starting from scratch because we don't know which of the lessons learned over the last 7 years are true.I don't expect any such thing. I don't expect to ever have such a collection of arrogant, dishonest, and sometimes not too bright people in charge of our national security. It might happen, but I don't expect it. To say that we should expect it is to give the Bush crowd a pass, which they don't deserve.

Well put. I don't like Dick Cheney either and I agree his credibility runs around 0%. Still the problem is vexing and there may be hints of truth in his statements so far, though I suspect anything incriminating will have found the paper shredder.

I wouldn't expect the exact same response if theres another incident, but if there are no direct military options then the administration will have to come up with 'something' to make it look like they have the situation under control.

dynalow · #97 04-24-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

For those who say that they don't care whether torture works because the U.S. doesn't torture, how do you explain why we bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden? I'm no historian, but I think that's a tough one to answer. Morally, aren't those bombings comparable to torture?

Harry didn't think so. After Okinawa, it was all about numbers in Japan. Don't know about the targeting of Dresden logic.

"Sixteen Hours Ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an

important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons

of T.N.T. It had more than two thousand times the blast power of the

British "Grand Slam" which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the

history of warfare.

The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been

repaid many fold. And the end is not yet......."

aklim · #98 04-24-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Speak for yourself. I don't think history backs you up.

History? Is that the study of what happened EONS ago? Acts done by someone else? My family has a lot of great carpenters. Therefore, me and my son will also be great carpenters.

cmbdiesel · #99 04-24-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Do you think any of this would have happened absent an unprecedented attack on US soil? How do we prevent another attack? Be nice and play by the rules with people who are trained from early childhood to hate our very existence? Would you want that responsibility on your head? Lets be realistic. The government was caught between a rock and a hard place with the lack of a real military target in response to 9/11. If it happens again, expect similar results as those in charge grapple to adjust to, and deal with, a stateless enemy that seemingly doesn't care about life or death.

So we perpetuate the hatred by continuing the violence and the abuses against prisoners? What then? Where does it stop?

Be realistic, stop giving them reasons to hate us.

Txjake · #**100** 04-24-2009, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

So we perpetuate the hatred by continuing the violence and the abuses against prisoners? What then? Where does it stop?

Be realistic, stop giving them reasons to hate us.

The fact that western culture exists is reason enough to hate us; read your history of the struggle between islam and the west....

cmbdiesel · #**101** 04-24-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

And you know we will win because you watch movies where the good guy always wins and goes off riding into the sunset with the beautiful girl and they live happily ever after, right?

A contract is only good when both sides abide by it. Would you continue to supply me product because you signed a contract that said that you would send it ever month even in spite of the fact that payment, which I agreed to send, has ceased?

So you think we must compromise ourselves or lose? Nice vote of confidence, why not just leave now? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. I believe we will succeed and win, as it were, because there are people, unlike yourself, who are willing to step up to the plate and defend our country, and do it while upholding the virtues of this nation. We do not need to become animals to fight animals, no matter how much you would enjoy it.

We are not dealing with signatories of the Geneva Convention.

After reading that post, I wouldn't do business with you at all, because your word, your signature, is apparently not worth the paper it's written on.

cmbdiesel · #**102** 04-24-2009, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

The fact that western culture exists is reason enough to hate us; read your history of the struggle between islam and the west....

Major over simplification, and incorrect to boot.

How many Muslims live in the west, and enjoy it?

We want to beat this circle of hate, we need to show that our way is better, otherwise it's a fight for ever. My kids, your kids, grandkids, etc. Don't you want to see the fight cease, or are you so indoctrinated that all you can see is war?

aklim · #**103** 04-24-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

So you think we must compromise ourselves or lose?

Nice vote of confidence, why not just leave now? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

I believe we will succeed and win, as it were, because there are people, unlike yourself, who are willing to step up to the plate and defend our country, and do it while upholding the virtues of this nation. We do not need to become animals to fight animals, no matter how much you would enjoy it.

We are not dealing with signatories of the Geneva Convention.

After reading that post, I wouldn't do business with you at all, because your word, your signature, is apparently not worth the paper it's written on.

What is your confidence based on? Good hope? Korea and Nam conflicts? What other full scale conflicts have we had with this kind of enemy where we have won in any recent history?

Good suggestion. Care to specify where to? If we don't wise up and play with the rules of the game not the rules WE bring to the game and insist they play by, sooner or later, we get overrun. Then what? Think they will stop there or proceed with anyone and everyone else? So your thing is "Have faith in methods you may deem stupid or leave"?

So why bother with the Geneva crap?

So, your position is that you will only do business with people that uphold their end of the contract even if the other side won't? I guess I am a little confused why you think my signature is not worth the paper it is written on. Care to explain yourself? I basically said that I won't honor a contract if the other side won't. You seem to want me to be as stupid as to honor a contract IN SPITE OF the other side not honoring their end. Is that what you do in business?

aklim · #**104** 04-24-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

We want to beat this circle of hate, we need to show that our way is better, otherwise it's a fight for ever. My kids, your kids, grandkids, etc. Don't you want to see the fight cease, or are you so indoctrinated that all you can see is war?

You seem to think that "Because I value this quality, you, the enemy, must too.". You seem to think your values are universal.

Botnst · #**105** 04-24-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

It's a shame if we're dropping our ideals like hot potatos because our enemy doesn't share them. So difficultly won, so easily given up. Trade ours for theirs, and we're sides of the same coin.

Also, if you think you can kill enough of them to give up their (perverted version of) religion, you are in for an everlasting struggle. Some motivations can't be killed away.

I haven't dropped my ideals. Sorry about yours.

I don't want them to convert religions -- they can believe WTF they wish. Just quit killing my countrymen and we'll be bestest buddies forever.