When the Romans murder civilians then you kill Romans and you find out what Romans have planned for future murders and you find out where the Romans hang-out and you kill them, too. And you keep killing Romans until they take-up street vending or farming.

Abu Ghraib was clearly in violation of US laws. It was mismanaged by certain military staff and the government admits that. Hence, what went on there was not done according to US policy as a state sanctioned concentration camp, and the people involved are being brought to justice.

Don't go lumping Abu Ghraib and the use of interrogation together. One was unlawful and the other, well that remains to be seen.

I suspect we have always had covert activities going on, probably more so in the past. With the advent of instant communications and 24x7 coverage, everybody wants to be in the loop now. Unfortunately that includes those with weak stomachs, and people who deny that there is an ugly under-belly associated with their otherwise pretty and care-free lives. I bet if this went to a referendum, 90+% would vote YES to approve harsh interrogation of the particular slime that we are discussing here.

My mom would slap you if you ever compared the United States with Nazi Germany.

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1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

It's a shame if we're dropping our ideals like hot potatos because our enemy doesn't share them. So difficultly won, so easily given up. Trade ours for theirs, and we're sides of the same coin.



Also, if you think you can kill enough of them to give up their (perverted version of) religion, you are in for an everlasting struggle. Some motivations can't be killed away.

__________________
1984 300TD

I think you will find that to be an incorrect assessment.

That would not erase the similarities.

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

A LINK proving your thought process might be helpful here

__________________
1987 560SL
85,000 miles

http://armed-services.senate.gov/Publications/Detainee%20Report%20Final_April%2022%202009.pdf

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/22/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4961519.shtml

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/23/Ex-Abu-Ghraib-boss-able-to-exhale/UPI-77401240488979/

I'd start with the Senate report, but if its too long for you, I included some news stories that are much shorter.

As one source put it, Rumsfeld's assertion that it was "just a few bad apples" seems to be correct, although he is one of them.

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

Oh, so you made it up.

I just can't grasp the mentality that seeks to lower the US to the least common denominator. We are better than that, we are better than torturing our prisoners, we are better than using chemical and biological weapons. The sacrifice made by our servicemen and women should not be cheapened by becoming what we fight against. Ours is a nation of ideals, of values, and yes, of morals. That is what makes us a great nation. Not our immense military power, but what that power fights for. We may be the only side playing by the rules, but we will win despite that, and be better for it (I know, almost verbatim from the other thread, but it bears repeating)

Those who argue against the Geneva Conventions, is not the seal of our nation upon that document, the signed names of our representatives? Do you break written contracts in your day to day life? Is not the word of the US government to be worth anything? If we break the codes which we have agreed to adhere to, why would any other nation believe anything from us? What leadership to emerging democracies would we be providing? What right to call ourselves the greatest nation on earth, if we cannot abide by a document that is humanitarian at it's core, and that has our sworn commitment to abide?

__________________
On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

Oh, so he made it up.

My guess is the vast majority of Iraqis that fell into our hands were tortured, like Torqemada looking for witches, this was Bush looking for WMDs or Al Queda. It's the genie they are trying to keep in the bottle.

^ to old "two wrongs make a right argument". Under your logic, it would have been OK for us to kill Jews too during WWII.

Do you think any of this would have happened absent an unprecedented attack on US soil? How do we prevent another attack? Be nice and play by the rules with people who are trained from early childhood to hate our very existence? Would you want that responsibility on your head? Lets be realistic. The government was caught between a rock and a hard place with the lack of a real military target in response to 9/11. If it happens again, expect similar results as those in charge grapple to adjust to, and deal with, a stateless enemy that seemingly doesn't care about life or death.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

These are tough questions, except the last one. The answer to that one is, "Hell no."

Those questions show why it is important for our leaders to be honest with us. Cheney says that aggressive interrogation saved American lives. If that is true, then it is an important point to consider. The problem is that Bush/Cheney, et al., have been caught in so, so many lies, their input has no value. None. It's as if we are starting from scratch because we don't know which of the lessons learned over the last 7 years are true.I don't expect any such thing. I don't expect to ever have such a collection of arrogant, dishonest, and sometimes not too bright people in charge of our national security. It might happen, but I don't expect it. To say that we should expect it is to give the Bush crowd a pass, which they don't deserve.

How do you know all this FOR SURE? Not assumption, but for sure?

__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

For those who say that they don't care whether torture works because the U.S. doesn't torture, how do you explain why we bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden? I'm no historian, but I think that's a tough one to answer. Morally, aren't those bombings comparable to torture?