Approving 'alternative interrogation methods' - Page 8 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Txjake · #**106** 04-24-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Major over simplification, and incorrect to boot.

How many Muslims live in the west, and enjoy it?

We want to beat this circle of hate, we need to show that our way is better, otherwise it's a fight for ever. My kids, your kids, grandkids, etc. Don't you want to see the fight cease, or are you so indoctrinated that all you can see is war?

sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing the Barney song will NOT bring an end to the violence. I am not optomistic, as this struggle has gone on for over a thousand years....Eastern Europe (Serbia, Bosnia, et al) was just freed from islamic clutches at the beginning of the 1900s. The Ottoman Empire held it for over 500 years...

cmbdiesel · #**107** 04-24-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

In Michigan, some Muslims have a campaign to replace Muslim law for secular law. They have several Internet .org sites.

Well off the topic, but you present this as if the christians have never tried suborning our laws for their purposes.

tankdriver · #**108** 04-24-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

For those who say that they don't care whether torture works because the U.S. doesn't torture, how do you explain why we bombed Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden? I'm no historian, but I think that's a tough one to answer. Morally, aren't those bombings comparable to torture?

No. They are more comparable to terrorism than torture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

I haven't dropped my ideals. Sorry about yours.

If you believe that we should act as they do, then you have. I personally do not want the enemy to dictate our morality.

Quote:

I don't want them to convert religions -- they can believe WTF they wish. Just quit killing my countrymen and we'll be bestest buddies forever.

Their religion is the cause of them killing our countrymen. You simply cannot kill it out of them, unless you engage in genocide on a scale that can only lead to global nuclear war.

JonL · #**109** 04-24-2009, 12:49 PM

One cannot conquer hate with more hate and violence. The Greeks knew it, Marvin Gaye knew it, and so did lot's of people in between.

I've had this discussion with so many people lately. "We can't talk to Iran...." "They don't understand anything but killing...." "They'll always hate us, no matter what...." "Islam is a medieval religion without reason...."

If all of that is true, then our efforts are a waste of our soldiers' lives and our fortune. We should either surrender or nuke every one of our adversaries into oblivion. Because if they'll always hate us and want us dead we'll always be at war with them until one side kills every last one of the other.

I do not believe this is what anyone truly wants.

I believe that radicalism and violent hatred for the US comes from misery. I am NOT saying that we are the principle cause of people's misery, but we are a highly visible focal point. When people are in misery it is easy for the radicals to find recruits. I believe that most people want adequate food and shelter and an opportunity to see their children have a better life in each succeeding generation. I believe that most people want to achieve this through honest and honorable work. I believe this to be true universally, regardless of religion or political outlook. I also believe there will always be a small percentage of every population that finds radicalism, hatred, violence, dishonesty, and the thirst for power to be more attractive. When a society is functional and the population is in general not miserable, the radicals remain a fringe element and no more than a nuisance. When misery takes hold, the radicals seem to offer an attractive alternative. The radicals need an enemy, a scapegoat. For radical Islam, the enemy is the US for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is the *impression* (founded or not) that the US has grown wealthy because of middle eastern oil, while the middle eastern populations have not shared in the prosperity. Add into the mix our becoming an aggressor and occupying force in Iraq. Add into the mix the generally negative attitude towards Islam from the West (or at the very least, a willful lack of understanding of the religion). This is why our actions in Iraq have not made us safer.

The world will become safer when there is a greater balance between military action (still necessary, of course) and political and social progress to lift people from oppression and misery.

aklim · #**110** 04-24-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Their religion is the cause of them killing our countrymen. You simply cannot kill it out of them, unless you engage in genocide on a scale that can only lead to global nuclear war.

Would you prefer THEY engage in genocide against us?

aklim · #**111** 04-24-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonL

The world will become safer when there is a greater balance between military action (still necessary, of course) and political and social progress to lift people from oppression and misery.

Not before mankind removes the yoke of that superstition known as religion. However, we haven't seen it happen in thousands of years, why should we think that it will happen anytime soon?

When things are good, it is easy for most to be secular. When things are bad, people will want a reason or meaning for it all. Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong or totally irrelevant. They want a meaning. Something religion is happy to supply them with.

tankdriver · #**112** 04-24-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Would you prefer THEY engage in genocide against us?

It is not an either/or proposition.

aklim · #**113** 04-24-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

It is not an either/or proposition.

You see either side being able and willing to settle?

cmbdiesel · #**114** 04-24-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonL

One cannot conquer hate with more hate and violence. The Greeks knew it, Marvin Gaye knew it, and so did lot's of people in between.

I've had this discussion with so many people lately. "We can't talk to Iran...." "They don't understand anything but killing...." "They'll always hate us, no matter what...." "Islam is a medieval religion without reason...."

If all of that is true, then our efforts are a waste of our soldiers' lives and our fortune. We should either surrender or nuke every one of our adversaries into oblivion. Because if they'll always hate us and want us dead we'll always be at war with them until one side kills every last one of the other.

I do not believe this is what anyone truly wants.

I believe that radicalism and violent hatred for the US comes from misery. I am NOT saying that we are the principle cause of people's misery, but we are a highly visible focal point. When people are in misery it is easy for the radicals to find recruits. I believe that most people want adequate food and shelter and an opportunity to see their children have a better life in each succeeding generation. I believe that most people want to achieve this through honest and honorable work. I believe this to be true universally, regardless of religion or political outlook. I also believe there will always be a small percentage of every population that finds radicalism, hatred, violence, dishonesty, and the thirst for power to be more attractive. When a society is functional and the population is in general not miserable, the radicals remain a fringe element and no more than a nuisance. When misery takes hold, the radicals seem to offer an attractive alternative. The radicals need an enemy, a scapegoat. For radical Islam, the enemy is the US for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is the *impression* (founded or not) that the US has grown wealthy because of middle eastern oil, while the middle eastern populations have not shared in the prosperity. Add into the mix our becoming an aggressor and occupying force in Iraq. Add into the mix the generally negative attitude towards Islam from the West (or at the very least, a willful lack of understanding of the religion). This is why our actions in Iraq have not made us safer.

The world will become safer when there is a greater balance between military action (still necessary, of course) and political and social progress to lift people from oppression and misery.

I agree. Continuing the wheel of hate and violence will only propagate more of the same. I would like to think that we may be part of the generation that breaks this cycle. The clearest method of accomplishing that is to behave in a manner that does not involve human rights violations, and war for profit.

aklim · #**115** 04-24-2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

I agree. Continuing the wheel of hate and violence will only propagate more of the same. I would like to think that we may be part of the generation that breaks this cycle. The clearest method of accomplishing that is to behave in a manner that does not involve human rights violations, and war for profit.

IOW, lets be the ideal human being and hope that they will stop what they are doing (aka, hope for the best). What response do you have if they don't respond? How long are you willing to wait to see results?

Honus · #**116** 04-24-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

No. They are more comparable to terrorism than torture...

If you say so, but my question stands. If the U.S. is too morally upright to engage in torture, then why did we do what we did to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden? What was our moral justification for doing that?

aklim · #**117** 04-24-2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

If you say so, but my question stands. If the U.S. is too morally upright to engage in torture, then why did we do what we did to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden? What was our moral justification for doing that?

This goes back to my core beliefs. I used marriage as an example. If we got married today, we each swear loyalty, love, etc, etc. Yes, if asked today, we'd both say we mean each and every word. FFWD 5 years down the road when we have an upside down mortage, poor job prospects and poor salary, the roof is leaking, kids keep screaming 24X7, etc, etc, etc, we divorce. Why? We did take a pledge to X,Y,Z in sickness and health, etc, etc, TILL DEATH DO WE PART. Were we lying then? No. We believed what we said at the time. So why the divorce now?

When those items were happening, we were locked in a life or death struggle and fortunately, we rose up to the challenge and said "Ideals are fine. I prefer to be alive to discuss them.". Today, we have the luxury of sitting back and talking about our ideals because we are not at crunch time yet, or so we think.

cmbdiesel · #**118** 04-24-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

IOW, lets be the ideal human being and hope that they will stop what they are doing (aka, hope for the best). What response do you have if they don't respond? How long are you willing to wait to see results?

We start with not torturing people.
We continue by not playing rogue cop all over the world.

I can only imagine that you were part of the 'nuke USSR' contingent back in the cold war as well

raymr · #**119** 04-24-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonL

One cannot conquer hate with more hate and violence. The Greeks knew it, Marvin Gaye knew it, and so did lot's of people in between.

I've had this discussion with so many people lately. "We can't talk to Iran...." "They don't understand anything but killing...." "They'll always hate us, no matter what...." "Islam is a medieval religion without reason...."

If all of that is true, then our efforts are a waste of our soldiers' lives and our fortune. We should either surrender or nuke every one of our adversaries into oblivion. Because if they'll always hate us and want us dead we'll always be at war with them until one side kills every last one of the other.

I do not believe this is what anyone truly wants.

I believe that radicalism and violent hatred for the US comes from misery. I am NOT saying that we are the principle cause of people's misery, but we are a highly visible focal point. When people are in misery it is easy for the radicals to find recruits. I believe that most people want adequate food and shelter and an opportunity to see their children have a better life in each succeeding generation. I believe that most people want to achieve this through honest and honorable work. I believe this to be true universally, regardless of religion or political outlook. I also believe there will always be a small percentage of every population that finds radicalism, hatred, violence, dishonesty, and the thirst for power to be more attractive. When a society is functional and the population is in general not miserable, the radicals remain a fringe element and no more than a nuisance. When misery takes hold, the radicals seem to offer an attractive alternative. The radicals need an enemy, a scapegoat. For radical Islam, the enemy is the US for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is the *impression* (founded or not) that the US has grown wealthy because of middle eastern oil, while the middle eastern populations have not shared in the prosperity. Add into the mix our becoming an aggressor and occupying force in Iraq. Add into the mix the generally negative attitude towards Islam from the West (or at the very least, a willful lack of understanding of the religion). This is why our actions in Iraq have not made us safer.

The world will become safer when there is a greater balance between military action (still necessary, of course) and political and social progress to lift people from oppression and misery.

You also can't deliver the message of peace and freedom when thousands of revered clerics are calling you the satan. We shouldn't be getting sucked up in their religious crap anyway. I'm all for pulling out of the ME and letting the chips fall where they may. (I know, can't do that.)

JonL · #**120** 04-24-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Not before mankind removes the yoke of that superstition known as religion. However, we haven't seen it happen in thousands of years, why should we think that it will happen anytime soon?

When things are good, it is easy for most to be secular. When things are bad, people will want a reason or meaning for it all. Doesn't matter whether it is right or wrong or totally irrelevant. They want a meaning. Something religion is happy to supply them with.

I actually agree with everything in this post. You've made my point for me. When things are good.... So let's devote a portion of our efforts towards helping things to be good for these people. Then religion will have less sway, and the manipulation of people towards hatred of the other will diminish. A win-win.