Gang violence--whats the answer?

[MS Fowler]

Probably not a typical democrat-republican issue.
Gangs seem to be taking over the Baltimore Metro area. In downtown they inhabit the parking garages and hastle/ anoy demand money from patrons.
In the Inner Harbor, they extort money from tourists.
Late late year a group attacked a women on a bus and disfigured her.
In the suburban high schools, and middle schools ,they intimidate students.
Yesterday, a very sad event in Columbia, MD--2 youths one 16, and one 14 years old, attacked another student and killed him as he tried to egt away. The victims's parents had recently changedm his HS to get away from the same group of gang thugs who eventually killed him.

So what is the answer? How does we as a society get control?

Oh, by the way, all of these incidents were black on white crime--although the news never reports that. If the races were reversed, Jesse, and the race-hustlers would be all over it, but when blacks are the perpertrators, you can't even call it a hate crime. Does that PC reporting help with a solution, or does it mask the problem?

Wow good question. One question was it a hate crime? I mean to say did the black youths pick on the person because he was white? Or are you trying to more get to the point this seems to be a predomiantly black problem? (not trying to be stupid just asking) I belive there is no single answer to gang violence. After school programs might be able to help? Speaking to parents? Getting more officers involved in the community? This is a subject that I don't really know much about. But certainly a good question.

[pj67coll]

Kill gangsters.

- Peter.

[Hatterasguy]

Its a cultural thing, inner city families break down or don't exist to begin with. The kids run wild, and the thug culture sells well to them.

In the inner cities they seem to be mostly black or mexican because of the white flight over the years. But thats not always the case.


My solution is to stay far away.

[MS Fowler]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Its a cultural thing, inner city families break down or don't exist to begin with. The kids run wild, and the thug culture sells well to them.

In the inner cities they seem to be mostly black or mexican because of the white flight over the years. But thats not always the case.


My solution is to stay far away.

I understand thenbreakdown of the families in the inner city. but this has gotten well into the suburbs.
I was not intending to say that it was a black issue; only that black on white crime is not treated the same as white on black crime. Somehow blacks are never charged with hate-crimes.
In the larger sense, it doesn't matter; the victum is still dead whether it was a hate-crime or not.

No, the real question is how do we stop the rise of gangs and gang-related violence in our society? It is not simply an inner city problem.

[JollyRoger]

In the big Texas metropolitan areas, they are a huge problem, but tend to be a problem only for those who live in the neighborhoods they inhabit. About fifteen years ago, in Houston they were a HUGE problem everywhere. Then a guy named Bob Lanier came along, he ran for mayor and did an honest thing, he said if elected he was going to raise taxes, and the higher taxes would be used for one thing: hire more cops. Lots of cops. Gang intolerent cops. He won, they hired thousands more police, and then Harris County followed suit, hiring more sheriffs and constables as well, and they all went to work, sending anyone who looked at someone with a gang-glint in their eye to jail. It's been a lot better ever since, at least in Houston, but in the cities where they have not gone the extra mile on hiring cops, San Antonio most notably, gangs are making people's lives miserable, so there, they just shoot them.

[jlomon]

A two-pronged "carrot and stick" approach. I think there are two fundamental reasons that someone joins a gang - protection from other gangs or as a source of income where other sources are not available. The carrot part of the approach is to invest in inner cities to provide legitimate opportunities for income so there is an alternative to crime. Dovetailing in with this is the "stick" - harsh punishment for people convicted of gang-related crimes and a sense of security in the neighborhoods that are controlled by gangs.

There will always be a criminal element - you'll never eradicate it completely. But if you can make it a less-attractive alternative you'll prevent a lot of people from walking down that path.

[JonL]

jlomon has a good post. I think there is also the desire to belong to a community, or in a sense, a family. If gangs are spreading to the suburbs, I think it is because of two things. For a while gangs were being somewhat glorified in the popular culture, the glorification could appeal to suburban youths who don't see the dark side as obviously. Second, even in suburbia there has been a breakdown in family structure because parents are working longer and harder to make ends meet. (And this applies to ALL kinds of families and parents... traditional mom and pop, single parent, gay couples, etc.)

I'm not at all a fan of Rudy Guliani, but I have to give him props for turning NYC around. His focus on "quality of life" crimes eventually made people realize that antisocial behavior was unacceptable and even in the most depressed parts of the city people just got tired of being criminals. It's almost as if criminal behavior went out of style. He cracked down on grafitti, panhandling, squeegee people, subway fare-beaters, etc. All kinds of things that used to be considered nothing more than nuisances. I think people in the worst neighborhoods began to enjoy living without the derelict cars, graffiti, gunfire, etc and the neighborhoods all improved.

I think there also has to be economic opportunity. That's a tougher one, especially for inner city kids that may have great social skill for their own environment, but lack the social skills required for mainstream jobs.

And the last thing is that there needs to be a way to blow off steam. I remember when "midnight basketball" programs were the focus of derision from the right wing talking heads. Seems to me that funding things like this are a very inexpensive way to provide a healthy outlet for youthful energy and testosterone.

[LUVMBDiesels]

THIS HAPPENED IN COLUMBIA???!!
I used to go there all the time and it was such a nice place (one of the first totally planned communities in the USA)

I cannot believe gang violence has spread to there.

I agree with Jon's assessment of Rudy. I am a huge fan of his, having worked in NYC during the Koch and Dinkins administrations I was shocked by Rudy's ability to turn things around. One thing that I thnik needs correcting though, by taking care of the burned out cars, graffiti, etc, Rudy and the NYPD made conditions such that the good people of NYC could stand up and take back their neighborhoods. Criminals didn't just say, "Gee I think I will turn honest today" The people stopped tolerating them in their midst and basically shiut them down. Neighborhood watches sprang up, people called the Cops (who would actually show up, imagine that...), and the conditons that fostered crime went away. Now I can actually feel safe running around weaponless Manhattan even at night, something I don't feel in DC even in daylight... back in the 1980's when I worked in NY, I was armed to the teeth and only went around in groups of at least three all of us armed with knives and maybe somethings that went bang...

As far as gangs go, the best thing to do is what they did in NY and in LA. Create tactical teams that swoop into a neighboorhood and round up all the gangbangers. In NY they pretty much stopped gang activity and in LA they curtailed it greatly. Once you round up and convict the hard core leaders, you can work with the younger members to turn them around...

[kerry]

Originally Posted by JonL

j

I'm not at all a fan of Rudy Guliani, but I have to give him props for turning NYC around. His focus on "quality of life" crimes eventually made people realize that antisocial behavior was unacceptable and even in the most depressed parts of the city people just got tired of being criminals. It's almost as if criminal behavior went out of style. .

The book Freakenomics has an argument that it wasn't Guiliani that reduced crime in NYC but Roe v Wade.

[Phil]

Every state in the country and definitly here in California school systems are running out of money and that means fewer teachers and less programs including sports, music and comon intrest clubs. No programs means kids standing around with nothing to do and now not very many jobs and a lot of them have both parents working to make ends meet so they get pulled in to groups such as gangs. If you want to reduce gangs to a minimum start funding schools and their programs so there is an alternative. If the schools had the money it would take time but it would turn around and it would probably reduce the drop out rate as well.

[mgburg]

Originally Posted by Phil

Every state in the country and definitly here in California school systems are running out of money and that means fewer teachers and less programs including sports, music and comon intrest clubs. No programs means kids standing around with nothing to do and now not very many jobs and a lot of them have both parents working to make ends meet so they get pulled in to groups such as gangs. If you want to reduce gangs to a minimum start funding schools and their programs so there is an alternative. If the schools had the money it would take time but it would turn around and it would probably reduce the drop out rate as well.

The schools have the money...take a serious look at your tax bill and argue that it doesn't...they also have a bloated administration...

Remove about 75% of the admins and use that money on the kids like it was intended...

You don't need Assistant BlahThis and Assistant BlahThat...get the people that are suppose to be in front of the kids out from behind the desks and get them some chalk and set 'em loose.

We had one principal in our HS...we didn't need an Assistant Principal...

We had one Guidance Councelor...not a staff of 'em...

Our School System Administrator was a teacher...he was IN the school during the day to actually see what the hell was really going on...he was a multi-tasker in the physical sense before the word was invented and mis-used...people multi-tasking today refers more to idiots driving, eating, phoning and gabbing w/passengers in a car...that's not multi-tasking...that's waiting for Death's Hand to tap you on the shoulder...

I challenge everyone to seriously look at their schools in their neighborhoods and see how many people, being paid with your tax dollars, your kids recognize from their day-to-day dealings with the staff...those $80K/yr. folks aren't worth that kind of money and they certainly don't contribute to the quality of your kids' education...

ONCE you trim that level of fat...watch the improvement in your kids...I guarantee you the rest will become interested in your kids' education like they haven't been involved before...

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by kerry

The book Freakenomics has an argument that it wasn't Guiliani that reduced crime in NYC but Roe v Wade.

I have lived in NYC since 1975. Survived the Beame/Koch "do nothing and it will pass" system that reduced the city to a crime ridden cesspool then Dinkens and it got worse to the stage where I carried a gun since I knew the cops weren't going to protect me.

Then Guliani came on the scene and within 18 months of directed police enforcement of Quality of Life and Puiblic Order crimes we turned it around and the city got better.

Yes we gave up some Public freedoms-mainly the attitude of "**** the Police". If you gave the cops **** they kicked your ass and put you in the Concrete Hilton.

Yes the majority of those in stir were minorities but the fact that 80% of the crime was done by minorities was the cause.

Then the economy turned around and minority kids were able to get jobs...guess what CRIME DROPPED!

Bloomberg has done a decent job of keeping the system up to the mark but with the huge economic downturn and large numbers of minority layoffs in Construction and Retail the crime rate is inching back up...no where near the late 70's early 80's but definately up. I see broken car window glass on the street much more, threatening looks from disenfranchised youth, urglaries and street crime are up, etc...

The .38 is still in the drawer but I have found that there are good folks out there that do not want to see the bad times come back.

NYC is still a place where common citizens get involved and stop crimes when they happen. the cops cannot do it all.

You are still safer in NYC than Atlanta, Washingtion DC, Baltimore, Charlotte, LA, Phoenix, New Orleans, Miami, London, Moscow, Odessa, Paris, BudaPest...all have person to person crimes rates double that of NYC. With the exception of London all have much smaller municipal police forces on the street.

[LUVMBDiesels]

Originally Posted by Stoney

I have lived in NYC since 1975. Survived the Beame/Koch "do nothing and it will pass" system that reduced the city to a crime ridden cesspool then Dinkens and it got worse to the stage where I carried a gun since I knew the cops weren't going to protect me.

Then Guliani came on the scene and within 18 months of directed police enforcement of Quality of Life and Puiblic Order crimes we turned it around and the city got better.

Yes we gave up some Public freedoms-mainly the attitude of "**** the Police". If you gave the cops **** they kicked your ass and put you in the Concrete Hilton.

Yes the majority of those in stir were minorities but the fact that 80% of the crime was done by minorities was the cause.

Then the economy turned around and minority kids were able to get jobs...guess what CRIME DROPPED!

Bloomberg has done a decent job of keeping the system up to the mark but with the huge economic downturn and large numbers of minority layoffs in Construction and Retail the crime rate is inching back up...no where near the late 70's early 80's but definately up. I see broken car window glass on the street much more, threatening looks from disenfranchised youth, urglaries and street crime are up, etc...

The .38 is still in the drawer but I have found that there are good folks out there that do not want to see the bad times come back.

NYC is still a place where common citizens get involved and stop crimes when they happen. the cops cannot do it all.

You are still safer in NYC than Atlanta, Washingtion DC, Baltimore, Charlotte, LA, Phoenix, New Orleans, Miami, London, Moscow, Odessa, Paris, BudaPest...all have person to person crimes rates double that of NYC. With the exception of London all have much smaller municipal police forces on the street.

You and me brutha!
I used to work up on 116th street and had to go up to 165th street and to Harlem Hospital to do work... I was petrified a lot of the time.
We actually had a guard murdered in the lobby of our office!
Now you can walk anywhere from Water Street to Inwood and not be afraid. However, in the outer boros and even in Manhattan, you can see graffiti coming back and I think Bloomie is letting things slip. He seems more interested in cigarette smokers and trans fat nonsense than keeping order.

[mgburg]

Originally Posted by kerry

The book Freakenomics has an argument that it wasn't Guiliani that reduced crime in NYC but Roe v Wade.

Kerry, don't get me wrong, but that book...FREAKENOMICS...sounds like it was trying to make an argument for abortion...every fetus aborted was a potential gasta' down the toilet...

What a stretch...