Public Roads, Public Parks, and the Public Health Care Option - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MTUpower · #61 08-24-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

The same reason Bill Gates is not an oil man.

What is that supposed to mean? Thousands of companies and people invest and run businesses in a wide variety of unrelated fields. It's a real question, and no it's not a defense of the large profits of private companies. The nature of the free market means voids in profit areas are filled quickly. The Red Cross or some similar organization ought to be able to make money if there is money to be made. It's business to the private companies- and business models can be replicated. If all options are on the table to be studied, where are the reports on this?

tankdriver · #62 08-24-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

What is that supposed to mean? Thousands of companies and people invest and run businesses in a wide variety of unrelated fields. It's a real question, and no it's not a defense of the large profits of private companies. The nature of the free market means voids in profit areas are filled quickly. The Red Cross or some similar organization ought to be able to make money if there is money to be made. It's business to the private companies- and business models can be replicated. If all options are on the table to be studied, where are the reports on this?

it means that those who want to make money in the insurance business are insurance companies. Bill Gates is not an oil man even though oil is a profitable business because he chooses not to do the things it would take to be one.
If the Red Cross chose to be an insurance company it would make plenty of money.

RichC · #63 08-24-2009, 09:58 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating state, worker or public ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by free and equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.[1][2][3] Socialism is not a political system; it is an economic system distinct from capitalism.

RichC · #64 08-24-2009, 10:07 PM

If the free market was the answer to the health care problem facing the United States
then why havent they fixed it ???

They have had plenty of time, and de regulation to get the job done.

----------------

Why do people still believe in this idea that the free market can solve all problems.

First off the only true free market is the black market.

And I dont think any rational person would choose to open health care up to the black market.

Unless you enjoy the idea of waking up without a kidney !!

Secondly

It has been capitalism and deregulation that has gotten us into this mess.

Even Alan Greenspan one of the biggest proponents of this "free market" idea has
admitted that the free market has failed us.

Has everyone forgot about the financial crisis, bottoming of the stock market.
Everyone lossing their houses, and retirement funds, and jobs ?

This is what the delusion of "free market will fix it" has given us.

Why continue to support an idea that came so close to destroying the American economy.

It just makes no sense.

MTUpower · #65 08-24-2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

it means that those who want to make money in the insurance business are insurance companies. Bill Gates is not an oil man even though oil is a profitable business because he chooses not to do the things it would take to be one.
If the Red Cross chose to be an insurance company it would make plenty of money.

And so why don't they? As the church says- "I will take dollars from the devil- and use them for God's work."
Why does the gov need to get involved if a non profit could do the same thing? I do not believe that every non profit in the USA says to itself " uh yeah, we could make all the money we need for our non profit side if we went into the health insurance business, but, uh, we chose not to do that." - that's the extension of your Bill Gates statement.

10fords · #66 08-25-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

I am not a community organizer.

I am a disabled computer geek.

I used to own a computer and internet service company.
And did some consulting.

Now SS disability sends me back a small portion of what I paid in.
And I am in a SS program that lets me work some.

I mow lawns, make veggie oil based fuels, restore old mercedes, write some, and other odd jobbs.
Even have a couple of people that work with me.
I do a good deal of volenteer work at different places.

But my true job is being a good husband to my wonderful wife.

She might have helped make some of the things you played with while in the military.
Works for a military defence contractor.
Computer science.
And she works on the really, really cool stuff.

You sure dident expect that now did you ???
From a guy that you just called a "commie"

So I dont fit in the little daydream your starting to have about who you think I am.

I am a simple human being living on this planet.
Trying to help others, and make this world a little better for all of us.

How the hell are you disabled from being a computer geek? Carpal tunnel from to much internet porn?

Getting SS at only 40 years old? I am 47 and I still work my ass off. I hurt everyday but I still go to work everyday to pay for malingerers like you.

Do you pay your taxes on your "odd "jobs? I doubt it.

I'll bet you try to be a good husband to your wonderful wife- she is supporting your free loading ass. And she works for the military-government complex that you spend your leisure time *****ing about. What a hypocrite.

What are you talking about that you don't fit my supposed "daydream" image? This is exactly how I thought you are- an unemployed professional victim who hates his life and blames it on everyone else because life is not "fair", so in the name of "fairness" you work tirelessly to make us all "equal".

I am also a simple human being living on this planet. I just don't like other simple people making decisions for me. Do me a favor-Don't try to "help" me. It's not "help" if you don't want it and it is forced on you anyway.

Sorry for the rant, but I am fed up with people who think that they are more concerned about what is better for my family than I am.

INAPPROPRIATE
B.C.

MTUpower · #67 08-25-2009, 08:25 AM

Computer geeks can spell, or know how to use a spell checker. 10fords pretty much nailed it. There are people that, for whatever reason, absorb off the rest of society and those that produce for the rest of society. The ever expanding reasons utilized to move from the produce side to the absorb side is disturbing. There is no incentive seen by some to attempt to stay on or move to the produce side. That path leads to the eventual swelling of the absorb side- who's burdens can no longer be shouldered or sustained by the produce side.

loepke72 · #68 08-25-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

If the free market was the answer to the health care problem facing the United States
then why havent they fixed it ???

They have had plenty of time, and de regulation to get the job done.

----------------

Why do people still believe in this idea that the free market can solve all problems.

First off the only true free market is the black market.

And I dont think any rational person would choose to open health care up to the black market.

Unless you enjoy the idea of waking up without a kidney !!

Secondly

It has been capitalism and deregulation that has gotten us into this mess.

Even Alan Greenspan one of the biggest proponents of this "free market" idea has
admitted that the free market has failed us.

Has everyone forgot about the financial crisis, bottoming of the stock market.
Everyone lossing their houses, and retirement funds, and jobs ?

This is what the delusion of "free market will fix it" has given us.

Why continue to support an idea that came so close to destroying the American economy.

It just makes no sense.

Wrong.

The reason things are so out of control is because government and other third party payers have distorted the "free market" and removed much of the "free market" that would bring down cost and improve quality.

Waking up without a kidney would fall into the category of fraud and/or deprivation of property, and it would be a proper role of government to deal with such matters.

Capitalism and deregulation did NOT get us into this mess; rather it was failure of our government to do its proper job and deal with the fraud perpetrated by certain members of Wall $treet with their Ponzi schemes, derivatives, imaginary money, and so on. What these people did was fraud, pure and simple, yet Uncle Sam has done little to bring them to justice. Unfortunately, this fraud resulted in the common folk losing jobs, houses, etc.

The free market WILL fix things, but it is merciless in doing so. That is where private charity enters the picture. Taking my hard earned money and giving it out under penalty of law is not compassion; it is robbery, no matter how noble the goal. Paying taxes to support the PROPER functions of government is not a problem with me..

Quote:

How the hell are you disabled from being a computer geek? Carpal tunnel from to much internet porn?

Getting SS at only 40 years old? I am 47 and I still work my ass off. I hurt everyday but I still go to work everyday to pay for malingerers like you.

Do you pay your taxes on your "odd "jobs? I doubt it.

I'll bet you try to be a good husband to your wonderful wife- she is supporting your free loading ass. And she works for the military-government complex that you spend your leisure time *****ing about. What a hypocrite.

What are you talking about that you don't fit my supposed "daydream" image? This is exactly how I thought you are- an unemployed professional victim who hates his life and blames it on everyone else because life is not "fair", so in the name of "fairness" you work tirelessly to make us all "equal".

I am also a simple human being living on this planet. I just don't like other simple people making decisions for me. Do me a favor-Don't try to "help" me. It's not "help" if you don't want it and it is forced on you anyway.

Sorry for the rant, but I am fed up with people who think that they are more concerned about what is better for my family than I am.

Right on. Couldn't have said it any better.

#69 08-25-2009, 08:31 AM

All computer geeks that I know can spell (and I know a lot because I am one). Its a vaild point.

tankdriver · #70 08-25-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

And so why don't they? As the church says- "I will take dollars from the devil- and use them for God's work."
Why does the gov need to get involved if a non profit could do the same thing? I do not believe that every non profit in the USA says to itself " uh yeah, we could make all the money we need for our non profit side if we went into the health insurance business, but, uh, we chose not to do that." - that's the extension of your Bill Gates statement.

The extent of my Bill Gates argument is why doesn't he start an oil business? Why don't you start an insurance company? Why doesn't Warren Buffet start a bank? It's because all choose not to.
I don't know how much money it would take to start up an insurance company, but I suspect it would cost a lot. I know that if I had the start up money, I would not. That's because I don't believe that a profitable business is the end pursuit. I don't think our current system is right. So why would I want to be a part of it?

LUVMBDiesels · #71 08-25-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loepke72

Wrong.

The reason things are so out of control is because government and other third party payers have distorted the "free market" and removed much of the "free market" that would bring down cost and improve quality.

Waking up without a kidney would fall into the category of fraud and/or deprivation of property, and it would be a proper role of government to deal with such matters.

Capitalism and deregulation did NOT get us into this mess; rather it was failure of our government to do its proper job and deal with the fraud perpetrated by certain members of Wall $treet with their Ponzi schemes, derivatives, imaginary money, and so on. What these people did was fraud, pure and simple, yet Uncle Sam has done little to bring them to justice. Unfortunately, this fraud resulted in the common folk losing jobs, houses, etc.

The free market WILL fix things, but it is merciless in doing so. That is where private charity enters the picture. Taking my hard earned money and giving it out under penalty of law is not compassion; it is robbery, no matter how noble the goal. Paying taxes to support the PROPER functions of government is not a problem with me..

.

BING BING BING... He gets it! I agree 100%

tankdriver · #72 08-25-2009, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10fords

How the hell are you disabled from being a computer geek? Carpal tunnel from to much internet porn?

That's pretty damn rude. Maybe he was in a car accident. Maybe he ran into a burning building to save someone. Aside from his physical condition being none of your business and irrelevant to the argument, if you want to know, you should consider being polite.

tankdriver · #73 08-25-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loepke72

The free market WILL fix things, but it is merciless in doing so.

I don't understand this blind faith in the god of free market. The market doesn't fix things. It it just a means of profit pursuit. The Wall streeters you rant about were free to operate the way they did, so they did it. That's free market. You can call it fraud, but the derivative swap et al. was completely legal and they were free to do it.

kerry · #74 08-25-2009, 10:22 AM

Let's focus on the free market option. Markets work because there are sellers and buyers. There's a free market for Rolls Royce's. But few people can afford them. Not many people think there is an injustice or a serious problem in people lacking the ability to buy a Rolls Royce. However, the cost of health care insurance is pushing it into the Rolls Royce realm with lots of people being unable to afford health insurance.
So, the free market is functioning. There is health insurance, it is being bought and sold but not to everyone. Is there a problem with this fact? I believe there is. We need people to work at relatively unskilled jobs at low wages. All of us use the labor of these people everyday in our lives. Is it fair that they lack the ability to see a doctor when they are sick, when wealthier people can easily do so? Since many medical conditions are issues of life and death, I think that since we know that there are systems available which are effective and efficient in providing health care to everyone, we should utilize them.
Of course there are other public health reasons why we want to make medical care available to everyone, especially in cases of infectious diseases, but for me the basic issue is whether a society which allows people to suffer or die as a result of treatable disease is a good one.

TimFreeh · #75 08-25-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

That's free market....

In a free market system when you make is mistake you burn. That doesn't seem to happen any more.

I realize that this sometimes this means we ALL have to burn, we have been having market cycles (including recessions and depressions) for as long as there have been markets. These cycles are an essential part of the process, they serve to flush nonsense out of the system.

What we are doing today reminds me of the US Forrest service policies regarding forest fires in the 30's and 40's. At that time the "sunshine and lollypops for everybody all the time at any cost" school of thought prevailed and all forest fires were extinguished at as soon as they were found. Only after decades of this policy did the "experts" realize that forest fires were a natural part of the environment and they actually serve a beneficial function.

Same deal with recessions and even depressions.

You may not like it but its hard to argue that our free-market system hasn't been successful. We've built a standard of living that is the envy of most of the rest of the world.