House Heating Question - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mpolli · #16 10-25-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Its still resistance heating no matter how you slice it. It's the most inefficient way to heat a space when you consider the energy lost at each stage of conversion and transmission from the power supply to your heater.

Could you be more specific about the energy lost and where? It is safe to say that about 99% of the electricity you buy gets turned into heat in a space heater (minus any for a fan if it has one).

Skippy · #17 10-25-2009, 07:47 PM

Sure, the electricity that makes it to the heater gets turned into heat, but you have the losses in making and transmitting the power. Power plants have been known to get everything from 15 to a bit over 30 percent efficiency, then you lose a percent or three in your step up transformers, some more in long-distance transmission, and another little bit in the step down transformers.

Skippy · #18 10-25-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpolli

AKA groun source heat pump. Heat pumps are interesting in that they can put out more energy in heat than they consume in electricity. The reason is because it is not producing the heat, just moving it from one place to another. Most heat pumps are "air source". So they have limitations in very cold weather. Ground source solves that issue.

True. I had an air-source heat pump when I lived in Mississippi. It worked fine most of the time, but on those few days when it got much below freezing, the thing didn't keep up so well.

raymr · #19 10-25-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy

Sure, the electricity that makes it to the heater gets turned into heat, but you have the losses in making and transmitting the power. Power plants have been known to get everything from 15 to a bit over 30 percent efficiency, then you lose a percent or three in your step up transformers, some more in long-distance transmission, and another little bit in the step down transformers.

Yep. Once it reaches your home it is considered 99% efficient. The losses happen before the electricity gets there, but someone still has to pay for the overhead.

pawoSD · #20 10-25-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy

Sure, the electricity that makes it to the heater gets turned into heat, but you have the losses in making and transmitting the power. Power plants have been known to get everything from 15 to a bit over 30 percent efficiency, then you lose a percent or three in your step up transformers, some more in long-distance transmission, and another little bit in the step down transformers.

Most power plants are quite a bit more efficient than 40%....some are much much higher. Yes there are transmission losses. BUT, there are also a lot of losses involved with extracting, transporting, and refining oil and natural gas. HUGE losses. And then on top of it the system using that fuel is not as efficient as an electrical heater.

I vote that electric is actually more environmentally friendly overall. Especially if the electric is being used to run a geothermal system.

Skippy · #21 10-25-2009, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

Most power plants are quite a bit more efficient than 40%....some are much much higher.

Got a link?

mpolli · #22 10-25-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

someone still has to pay for the overhead.

Yes. The POWER COMPANY. I suppose I should calculate the cost of drill bits and tankers when picking my next gas furnace???

Brandon_SLC · #23 10-25-2009, 11:42 PM

Burning gas in your own furnace is more efficient than creating the same amount of heat from electricity if that electricity is derived from carbon based fuels.

pawoSD · #24 10-25-2009, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippy

Got a link?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Read in the sections talking about the plants. An average coal plant is around 35-40% efficient, while a super critical steam coal plant can reach 48% efficiency....as can nuclear plants of the same type.

So with losses en route to the outlet on your wall, maybe another 10-15% loss....so lets say 20% efficient. Gotta wonder if a natural gas or heating oil home furnace or boiler can match that when you factor in the costs of transporting and extracting the physical gas and oil + the inefficiencies of the boiler/furnace itself. I bet not.

If you live a ways away from the fuel depot and use heating oil, that truck might have to make a 50-60 mile round trip just to deliver the oil, burning several gallons in the process....+ the oil burned to get the oil to their depot from a refinery....and the process of refining......and getting the oil to the refinery, and out of the ground at its origins.....its a hugely wasteful and inefficient process. Its a wonder we have enough fuel to supply such a wasteful system. We probably won't in the not too distant future.

A single 500Mw coal plant running at max load will consume over 250 tons of coal per hour. That is just mind boggling.

And the world burns over 1000 barrels of oil per second......rates of use of non-renewable resources like this cannot go on for long....

raymr · #25 10-25-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpolli

Yes. The POWER COMPANY. I suppose I should calculate the cost of drill bits and tankers when picking my next gas furnace???

I don't know how it is in Seattle, but electric rates here have gone through the roof (something like +80% over the last few years) due to deregulation. No more price caps. Utilities are now passing along their actual costs to the customer. Only now we get a choice of providers, but they cost pretty much the same.

pawoSD · #26 10-25-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

I don't know how it is in Seattle, but electric rates here have gone through the roof (something like +80% over the last few years) due to deregulation. No more price caps. Utilities are now passing along their actual costs to the customer. Only now we get a choice of providers, but they cost pretty much the same.

What is your cost of power?

I pay about 10 cents per kwh here.....this past month I managed to only use 212kwh....my bill was under $31.

How is that for efficient?

Through analysis with my Kill-a-watt I have figured out that my computer equipment and fridge (which is new and quite efficient) make up about 70% of my electric bill.....with TV/Cooking/vacuum...etc...the remainder.

I use LED lighting and some CFL's....so I probably use less than 5kwh a month to light my home.

raymr · #27 10-26-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Read in the sections talking about the plants. An average coal plant is around 35-40% efficient, while a super critical steam coal plant can reach 48% efficiency....as can nuclear plants of the same type.

So with losses en route to the outlet on your wall, maybe another 10-15% loss....so lets say 20% efficient. Gotta wonder if a natural gas or heating oil home furnace or boiler can match that when you factor in the costs of transporting and extracting the physical gas and oil + the inefficiencies of the boiler/furnace itself. I bet not.

If you live a ways away from the fuel depot and use heating oil, that truck might have to make a 50-60 mile round trip just to deliver the oil, burning several gallons in the process....+ the oil burned to get the oil to their depot from a refinery....and the process of refining......and getting the oil to the refinery, and out of the ground at its origins.....its a hugely wasteful and inefficient process. Its a wonder we have enough fuel to supply such a wasteful system. We probably won't in the not too distant future.

A single 500Mw coal plant running at max load will consume over 250 tons of coal per hour. That is just mind boggling.

And the world burns over 1000 barrels of oil per second......rates of use of non-renewable resources like this cannot go on for long....

A new condensing furnace or boiler gets something like 96% efficiency. No comparison. Fuel delivery trucks don't just go to 1 house. They are on a route with several stops. There is competition in the fuel oil business so they streamline to keep prices down. As long as oil is reasonable , ie under $4/gallon, I'll continue to use it. But even if it does go up a lot, options are limited because the costs of all energy sources seem to increase together. I hope biofuels happen soon. I'd love to heat my house the green way with soy or algae extracts.

Skippy · #28 10-26-2009, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_plant

Thanks for the link. The figures I cited above were what I remembered from a thermodynamics class I took about 12 years ago. I guess they've made some improvements. I did take a power plant tour of a nuke plant in Alabama that was supposed to achieve 36% efficiency, but stuff happened and the plant wasn't finished.

raymr · #29 10-26-2009, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

What is your cost of power?

I pay about 10 cents per kwh here.....this past month I managed to only use 212kwh....my bill was under $31.

How is that for efficient?

Through analysis with my Kill-a-watt I have figured out that my computer equipment and fridge (which is new and quite efficient) make up about 70% of my electric bill.....with TV/Cooking/vacuum...etc...the remainder.

I use LED lighting and some CFL's....so I probably use less than 5kwh a month to light my home.

12.2 cents. You are very efficient. Ours is ~2000 kwh with pool, A/C, and DHW for 5 people.

daveuz · #30 10-26-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 280EZRider

We all know that once the system has been installed as new, hot water/steam radiators are the most efficient of all home heating systems. So my question is this: Has anyone ever used an electric oil-filled radiator in each room in place of a FAG system? And if so, how bad was the electric bill? And finally, do these oil-filled radiators have an internal pump or not?

You are very close to North East PA. I would look into an Anthracite coal stove or boiler. Very clean burning. Here is a link to some idea of savings. http://nepacrossroads.com/about998.html