For all his claims to 'truth' and 'logic', this argument is plain goofy. He obviously did not turn to the 'holy books' themselves. He turned to a very small subset. Why didn't he read the Qur'an, or the Analects, or the Laws of Manu, or the Tao Te Ching, or the Book of Mormon, or the Diamond Sutra? He's doing religious philosophy the way an astronomer would do astronomy if he believed that only Ptolemy was authoritative. He should stick to science.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Well said, Friedrich.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

it is said that there are no atheist in fox holes. we might include oncology wards in that statement as well. when a man or woman directly faces death, their belief systems are challenged. anytime I question the existence of a higher power, I step out into the night and look up at the stars above. no man could have ever engineered or created anything as magnificent as that.

the optic nerve between the eye and the brain carries more information in TWO SECONDS than the fastest super computers can process in 100 years.

the body systems work in ways that no doctor will ever fully understand nor comprehend. once upon a time, I worked for one of the country's best neurosurgeons. he shared with me that there are things we will NEVER understand about the human brain. he said he felt as if he were only experimenting or scratching the surface when performing brain surgery. eyes seeing, brains processing, hearts beating, kidneys and livers filtering, stomach processing food......it's a miracle.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

The fact that you don't understand it doesn't make it magic (or a "miracle," whatever that means).

BS. My father was in a 'foxhole' for 5 years. The hole was called Auschwitz. My father does not believe in god. My father believes he survived by being at the right place at the right time and by fighting like hell to survive.

I was held up at gun point (two of them in fact) and god did not cross my mind.

The fact that we do not understand something is not proof of a higher being. I look at the human body or any life forms and see something that has a very limited environment in which it can live. Humans without our technology are limited to land. We have no extraordinary powers to fly, jump, swim... etc. We fit our environment with very little room for variance. If the climate changes much, we will go the way of dinosaurs. Marin fish need to be in a very narrow temperature band to survive. Animals have evolved to fit into their little niche. Should it change or disappear, they will probably go with it.

Centuries ago, people had no concept about space, flying faster than sound, going down to 35,000 feet in the ocean. Who knows what discoveries science will bring in the next centuries.

I believe the body is nature. So is the viciousness of man. If you wish to attribute one to your god, then I will attribute the other to your god as well.

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Sent from an agnostic abacus

2014 C250 21,XXX my new DD ** 2013 GLK 350 18,000 Wife's new DD**

- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Has your father written about his experiences?

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Really? Take a look at the last paragraph you wrote. Sounds like fear to me. Fear of external damnation and the promise of paradise for compliance. Carrot and stick, at best.

Really? Where is the Garden of Eden? Got GPS coordinates? Tower of Babel. How did he prove it exists or existed? Virgin birth? How did he prove that there was parthenogenesis occurring?

So, he spent (365*1.5=547.5) hrs on his quest and he figured it all out? Amazing. Totally unbelievable. A college physics book would take at least that long to go thru and collaborate. Makes me wonder why people spend several years obtaining their "Masters of Divinity" certifications.

All that shows me is that the believers are willing to turn their lives over to some mystical diety on the hope of something better. Much like our people are willing to turn their lives over to some govt figure in hopes of a better life.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
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04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Really? If you believe that happens in real life, please don't ever let me hear you gripe about the Rep party and their religious crap. Reagan brought them in for $$ and votes just like any other group buys their so and so. I suppose you believe that the gay rights groups didn't buy any influence this election? IIRC, some of them were openly saying that they wanted more done because they supported Obama with money and votes. The religious right is probably more subtle but their message is just as clear. We own your ass. Vote the way we want or we cut of funding.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

You never heard of a "Hail Mary Pass" in Football?

Not sure I believe in the Teleological Argument. After all, just because man, at this level cannot do it doesn't mean it can never be done, ever. I cannot understand Einsteins' equations but that does not mean it cannot be understood.

And the laptop today processes more information than the best computers did when they were first made. What of it?

Things change. Knowledge increase. A friend of mine who had Hodgkin's disease was told that a year before, they would just have sent him home to be comfortable. Instead, they gave him radiotherapy he lived 18 years more before it came back. The current doctors felt he was over irradiated and today, they would have done spot radiotherapy. Just because your employer was top of the field then doesn't mean that someone more knowledgeable will not come along. We met an RN that knew 15 drugs when she started. Wife has to study more than 15 classes. In 50 years, they will have to know way more than that to start. So just because he cannot understand how it works today is not a reason to say that it can never be understood given time.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Misappropriated. Only one school can lay claim to the Hail Mary.

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You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393061027?ie=UTF8&tag=saloncom08-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0393061027#reader_0393061027

That book has gotten very good reviews. Planning to get a copy for my daughter for Xmas.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

it's pointless to discuss the issue with the "true believers"; they are operating on emotion, not reason.

don't waste your time.

as sarah silverman concluded: "jesus is magic"

p.s. dr.ross's argument is truly ridiculous. "scientific" analysis of the bible proved it valid? (it's one part jewish fairy/morality tales and one part conflicting/confusing/make-believe stories of supernatural magic.)

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

yeah, and I've known men who have been to hells known as vietnam. some showed a strong will to survive while others did not. strong will or no strong will your clock and my clock will stop one day. 70 years and a hole in the ground. your father's fight in a POW camp merely delayed the inevitable. say you fought the flu and got over it? it doesn't matter because you and I are still gonna check out. so, whether a POW, AIDS, the flu or cancer, ultimately THE GRIM REAPER WILL HAVE HIS SAY.

speaking of which, two close friends who crossed over (hearts stopped, breathing stopped, doctors declared them "dead" as in "call the coroner"). came back and shared their stories with me personally. from what they explained, only one of two possibilities exists:

1. they invented the most insane fantasia based story ever told or...

2. there is something more on the other side, no matter whether your father, my father or the dog next door believes it.


FYI, you may wish to consider looking into the term "God" a little more closely. especially the ancient teutonic uses of the term. it isn't what most people think...........

due to obtaining a more clear understanding of the word "God", I refuse to use it at all.

this post will gender the same mud slinging, biased, pre-determined "I've got my mind made up and you aren't gonna change it" type responses. it's ok, it doesn't matter, I know what I know.

I suspect your reference to Aushwitz as a POW camp is not simply an error so I'll ignore that issue.
Since you seem to be having trouble imagining a variety of possibilities, I'll add another:

3. Your friends weren't really dead.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13