American fundamentalism and being 'born again' - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

HuskyMan · #61 12-14-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I suspect your reference to Aushwitz as a POW camp is not simply an error so I'll ignore that issue.
Since you seem to be having trouble imagining a variety of possibilities, I'll add another:

3. Your friends weren't really dead.

yeah, and here's another: you weren't in the OR, either. so......there is the dilemma. unless one has PERSONALLY witnessed or experienced an event, it is all second hand, isn't it? which means we will just have to wait and see when we "cross the bar" so to speak...........

kerry · #62 12-14-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

yeah, and here's another: you weren't in the OR, either. so......there is the dilemma. unless one has PERSONALLY witnessed or experienced an event, it is all second hand, isn't it? which means we will just have to wait and see when we "cross the bar" so to speak...........

A few posts ago you were saying you knew something about God, now you're saying nobody knows.

#63 12-14-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

3. Your friends weren't really dead.

3.5 There is some common physiological response to being "near death" that has been experienced by many people.

I don't think we need magic to explain this any more than gods were required to explain the changing of the seasons 3000 years ago.

HuskyMan · #64 12-14-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I suspect your reference to Aushwitz as a POW camp is not simply an error so I'll ignore that issue.
Since you seem to be having trouble imagining a variety of possibilities, I'll add another:

3. Your friends weren't really dead.

define the terms POW, Enemy Combatant or Detainee please. it doesn't matter what they are called aren't they all in the lock-up??? it is said a POW has certain "rights" under the geneva convention. and that is only if there is a formal declaration of war and ONLY if the country who signed the treaty agrees to live up to the terms. and that is an awful big IF, isn't it?

Personally, I've come to believe that some nations enjoy tormenting their enemies by throwing them into a dungeon.

some believe that wars are fought by rules. Berkheimer's disagrees. he says that when war begins, law goes out the door. or, perhaps a better way of stating it is, "He who has the BIGGEST guns gets to make the rules".

W.A.R. (We are RIGHT)

dannym · #65 12-14-2009, 03:24 PM

I never ceases to amaze me the extent some people will go to deny the existence of God. Like if they did they would be struck by a lightning bolt or something.
If you look at the lineage from Abraham to Jesus in Mathew chapter 1 you will see the worst of the worst. Thieves, murderers, prostitutes, some of the worst rulers of mankind, drunkards, outcasts. You think of it, it's in there. The point is Jesus didn't come from some high ranking family, He came from people who are just like our society today. You don't have to be morally right to accept God in your life. In fact having high morals can be a stumbling block because people tend to thing that their good deeds alone can reconcile them to God.
God knows what you have done, he knows what's in your heart. He knows everything. God does not want to be your moral redeamer, he just wants you!
God tells us that he will take our sin(our past, things we have done, maybe ashamed of) and throw them into the depths of the sea, never to be seen again. Jesus lived the life we should have lived and died the death we deserve. If that's not a gift I don't know what is.
A statement was made:

Quote:

It's got me thinking about the whole issue of being 'born again'. Theoretically, a gun controlling, pro-choice, gay, feminist, atheistic naturalistic euthanizing libertarian could attend a Billy Graham rally, feel the spirit at the altar call and get 'born again' and become a gun loving anti-abortion, homophobic, sexist, anti-euthanizing supernaturalistic theist authoritarian in an instant. Obviously, that does not happen.

Why not? Sure it happens, acknowledging the existence of God doesn't instantly make you perfect.

That said I always thought of "Born Again Christians" as being Mormons. Or religious zealots.
Certainly there are thousands of people being baptized every day without labeling themselves Born Again.

Danny

HuskyMan · #66 12-14-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

A few posts ago you were saying you knew something about God, now you're saying nobody knows.

please re read my previous posts. I stated that I believe there is a "higher power". since I took the time to study the historic definition of the word "God", I refuse to use the word "God" anymore.

and, the next post concerns the experience of having one's heart STOP for a period of time. even if you or I were sitting in the ER and actually WITNESSED someone dying and then coming back and telling their stories, it would be a second hand event. what I am saying is unless and until it happens to YOU personally, neither you nor I will know for sure what dying is really like.

aklim · #67 12-14-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannym

I never ceases to amaze me the extent some people will go to deny the existence of God. Like if they did they would be struck by a lightning bolt or something.

The point is Jesus didn't come from some high ranking family, He came from people who are just like our society today.

You don't have to be morally right to accept God in your life. In fact having high morals can be a stumbling block because people tend to thing that their good deeds alone can reconcile them to God.

God knows what you have done, he knows what's in your heart. He knows everything. God does not want to be your moral redeamer, he just wants you!

God tells us that he will take our sin(our past, things we have done, maybe ashamed of) and throw them into the depths of the sea, never to be seen again. Jesus lived the life we should have lived and died the death we deserve. If that's not a gift I don't know what is.

Wasn't Saul blinded till he "reformed"?

Neither did Charles Manson. What's your point? that if you are low caste, what you say is right automatically?

You just have to swear allegiance to that deity is all. That is what govt is for today. For the unbelievers. That gives them something to swear allegiance to and have that govt now fix all their ills. See? Something for everyone.

Have him meet me at a public place at a time of my choosing and let him tell us instead of all kinds of insidious signs which could be interpreted any way you want. Good thing happen to you? Blessing. Bad thing happen? Part of a plan you cannot understand.

Define "gift", please. I think you are confusing it with "trade" or "barter". As I asked, can I have a helping of that gift if I don't swear allegiance or whatever it is you call it? If that is truly free, let me know. Otherwise, it is not a gift, as you put it.

aklim · #68 12-14-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

please re read my previous posts. I stated that I believe there is a "higher power". since I took the time to study the historic definition of the word "God", I refuse to use the word "God" anymore.

and, the next post concerns the experience of having one's heart STOP for a for a period of time. even if you or I were sitting in the ER and actually WITNESSED someone dying and then coming back and telling their stories, it would be a second hand event. what I am saying is unless and until it happens to YOU personally, neither you nor I will know for sure what dying is really like.

How can you be sure it isn't the shutdown process and chemicals that are causing that illusion?

HuskyMan · #69 12-14-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How can you be sure it isn't the shutdown process and chemicals that are causing that illusion?

no one can be sure of the death or near death experience in a definitive absolute way unless and until they have experienced it first hand. a coupla items though. when an individual is dying, hearing is the last thing to go. the death rattle begins and usually the feet turn slightly inward. eyesight is no more. they can still hear which gives those around them the opportunity to say their final farewells. finally, life stops with the last breath. the heart monitor goes flat, and that is that. time to call the body removal team........

here's a link for more info....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_rattle

tonkovich · #70 12-14-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veggihatetank

Dr Hugh Ross came to be a born-again christian just by logic without any fear involved.

by Dr. Hugh Ross
My Search for Truth

I was born in Montreal and raised in Vancouver, Canada. My parents were morally upright but non-religious. Our neighbors could also be described as non-religious. I did not know any Christians or serious followers of any other religion while I was growing up.

Though my neighborhood was poor, its public schools were outstanding and its libraries well equipped By age seven I was reading physics books as fast as I could check them out. By eight I had decided to make astronomy my career. In the next several years my study of the big bang convinced me that the universe had a beginning, and thus a Beginner. But, like the astronomers whose books I read, I imagined that the Beginner must be distant and non-communicative.

My high school history studies disturbed me, for it was obvious that the peoples of the world tended to take their religions very seriously. Knowing that the European philosophers of the Enlightenment largely discounted religion, my initial response was to study their works. What I discovered, however, were inconsistencies, contradictions, evasions, and circular reasoning.

The obvious next step was to turn to the "holy" books themselves. If God the Creator had spoken through any of these books (and I thought He probably had not) his authorship would be obvious: the communication would be perfectly true. I reasoned that if men invent a religion, their teachings will reflect human error. But, if the Creator communicates, His message will be error free and just as consistent as the facts of nature. So, I used the facts of history and science to test each of the "holy" books.

Initially my task was easy. After only a few hours (in some cases less) of reading, I could find one or more statements clearly at odds with the facts of history and science. I also noted a writing style best described as esoteric and mysterious; it seemed inconsistent with the character of the Creator as implied by the facts of nature. My task was easy until I dusted off the Bible that the Gideons had given me several years earlier as part of their distribution program in the public schools.

I found the Bible noticeably different. It was simple, direct, and specific. I was amazed at the quantity of historical and scientific (i.e., testable) material it included and at the detail of this material. The first page of the Bible caught my attention. Not only did its author correctly describe the major events in the creation of life on earth, but he placed those events in the scientifically correct order and properly identified the earth's initial conditions.

For the next year and a half I spent about an hour a day searching the Bible for scientific and historical inaccuracies. I finally had to admit that it was error free and that this perfect accuracy could only come from the Creator Himself. I also recognized that the Bible stood alone in describing God and His dealings with man from a perspective that demanded more than just the dimensions we humans experience (length, width, height, and time). Further, I had proven to myself, on the basis of predicted history and science, that the Bible was more reliable than many of the laws of physics. My only rational option was to trust the Bible's authority to the same degree as I trusted the laws of physics.

By this time I clearly understood that Jesus Christ was the Creator of the universe, that He paid the price that only a sinless person could pay for all of my offenses against God, and that eternal life would be mine if I would receive His pardon and give Him His rightful place of authority over my life.

you know, this little tome becomes ever more ridiculous upon rereading.

who understands physics at age seven?

who - in the western world - never interacts with - however briefly - anyone from any organized religion?

it just goes downhill from there.

eternal life?

sinless person?

this essay is designed to appeal to the mind of a ...not too smart eleven year old.

having read the bible, and been exposed to it, almost constantly, from youth to adulthood, i recall the parting of the red sea, 900 year old men (several), "manna" from heaven, a four (or six?) thousand year old earth, people rising from the dead, being cured of leprosy, and on and on. now, i do see these as interesting stories, allegories, ? something? but certainly not real historical events. i also fail to see mention of future scientific advances and discoveries, which surely an all-knowing "being" would see coming. (we won't discuss this "super book" failing to mention other lands and peoples and climates other than the middle east, and perhaps the meditarranean areas of europe. where is mention of other continents, mountains, peoples?)

but again, i expect no honest appraisal from the believers.

(tho i am sure they will explain this away as some almighty "mystery", unfathomable to my sinful human mind.)

davidmash · #71 12-14-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Has your father written about his experiences?

Kind of. There are 2 interviews (one by the Wiesenthal center and one by a journalist) and he has also written down some things in a memoir format that we are working on.

davidmash · #72 12-14-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

yeah, and I've known men who have been to hells known as vietnam. some showed a strong will to survive while others did not. strong will or no strong will your clock and my clock will stop one day. 70 years and a hole in the ground. your father's fight in a POW camp merely delayed the inevitable. say you fought the flu and got over it? it doesn't matter because you and I are still gonna check out. so, whether a POW, AIDS, the flu or cancer, ultimately THE GRIM REAPER WILL HAVE HIS SAY.

The foxhole comment implies that anyone in danger of their life will turn to god. Not comparing who had it worse or anything else. I am just saying that my dads life was in jeopardy every minute of every day for 5 years and he did not nor does he believe in god. So there are atheists in fox holes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

speaking of which, two close friends who crossed over (hearts stopped, breathing stopped, doctors declared them "dead" as in "call the coroner"). came back and shared their stories with me personally. from what they explained, only one of two possibilities exists:

1. they invented the most insane fantasia based story ever told or...

2. there is something more on the other side, no matter whether your father, my father or the dog next door believes it.

No idea who they are or what they "saw". The mind has ways of creating things to comfort it's self. A person who fears death and the 'afterlife' I believe is more likely to imagine/create things that comfort them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

FYI, you may wish to consider looking into the term "God" a little more closely. especially the ancient teutonic uses of the term. it isn't what most people think...........

due to obtaining a more clear understanding of the word "God", I refuse to use it at all.

this post will gender the same mud slinging, biased, pre-determined "I've got my mind made up and you aren't gonna change it" type responses. it's ok, it doesn't matter, I know what I know.

It's a free country and you can believe what you want. I am perfectly comfortable not having any idea what happens after I die. Nor do I care.

davidmash · #73 12-14-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

define the terms POW, Enemy Combatant or Detainee please. it doesn't matter what they are called aren't they all in the lock-up???

Auschwitz was neither a detainee camp nor a POW camp. It was a labor/death camp. People either worked (slave labor) and/or they died. I said and/or because most died because of the work, lack of food, lack of sanitation, lack of medical care, lack of pretty much all requirements to live.

Not that any of this has anything to do with your original statement which was that there are no atheist in foxholes. I have already proven that there were at least two (my mother was in a camp as well). And yes Kerry, she has an interview as well.

aklim · #74 12-14-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

The foxhole comment implies that anyone in danger of their life will turn to god. Not comparing who had it worse or anything else. I am just saying that my dads life was in jeopardy every minute of every day for 5 years and he did not nor does he believe in god. So there are atheists in fox holes.

It's a free country and you can believe what you want. I am perfectly comfortable not having any idea what happens after I die. Nor do I care.

I'm sure he looked around and saw what the deitys did for his fellow prisoners and realized it didn't help him.

At best, you can guess what happens since nobody really knows what happens. Just because some book says so doesn't make it so.

tonkovich · #75 12-14-2009, 07:23 PM

oh, dr.ross seems to have given up science, in favor of the pulpit, and, yes, the collection plate.

now, thanks to the -obviously god inspired - internet, you can visit his website, and spend accordingly.

yes, go here: http://www.faithcenteredresources.com/authors/hugh-ross.asp

and purchase dr. ross' products.

(there are a legion of websites pointing out the fallacies of his arguments)

(and there are many, as well, explaining the "near death" experience as, sadly, a physiological experience. )

(the quality of propaganda is a little weak, mr. original poster. but, don't let facts and logic get in the way. )