Stick It - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

G-Benz · #46 03-11-2010, 05:30 PM

So the warped conclusion is:

If you can't drive stick...you prefer gay sex.

rwthomas1 · #47 03-12-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Anyone can have gay sex too. Doesn't mean everyone will want to or like it. Stick driving is not like some sort of holy grail that only the few that are deemed worthy will have it.

Gee, I didn't know that was the defining point.

Are you fat? Stupid? Lazy? Can you drive a stick? I thought you said you could? Don't get the gay sex point either. My point stands, if you can't drive stick you are simply clueless and maybe should take the bus. Its about mastery of a vehicle. Automatics are fine for the 4 door "appliance" that gets you to work in stop-n-go but they have no place in a car intended to tear up corners. The exceptions would be very high end cars like M5's, SLK's, paddle shifted, etc. The average slush-box in 98% of cars is god-awful.

RT

aklim · #48 03-12-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Are you fat? Stupid? Lazy? Can you drive a stick? I thought you said you could? Don't get the gay sex point either.

My point stands, if you can't drive stick you are simply clueless and maybe should take the bus. Its about mastery of a vehicle.

Automatics are fine for the 4 door "appliance" that gets you to work in stop-n-go but they have no place in a car intended to tear up corners. The exceptions would be very high end cars like M5's, SLK's, paddle shifted, etc.

The average slush-box in 98% of cars is god-awful.

It's pretty simple a point. Yes, I can drive stick to the point I don't have to engage the clutch. Yes, I am physically capable of having gay sex. No, I don't like stick shifts. No, I don't like to have gay sex.

I am not familiar with that definition. Where did you come upon that definition that stick shifting is the "holy grail" of driving that we should all achieve?

In an autocross or very tight course, maybe. That is, unless you want to ignore that we can have a manual valve body for you to shift manually.

What is awful about it? Besides the macho factor, that is.

rwthomas1 · #49 03-12-2010, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

It's pretty simple a point. Yes, I can drive stick to the point I don't have to engage the clutch. Yes, I am physically capable of having gay sex. No, I don't like stick shifts. No, I don't like to have gay sex.

I am not familiar with that definition. Where did you come upon that definition that stick shifting is the "holy grail" of driving that we should all achieve?

In an autocross or very tight course, maybe. That is, unless you want to ignore that we can have a manual valve body for you to shift manually.

What is awful about it? Besides the macho factor, that is.

Most automatics are awful for several reasons. Shift quality is lacking, usually too soft unless just getting around. Even a manual valve body gives a disconnected feel simply because the connection to the engine is a viscous coupling. Not talking DSG or paddle shift here, just regular automatics, think Toyota Camry.... Frequently when you slow down to make a turn, automatics are late to downshift, then they upshift early again, only to downshift again at the next nearest corner. Every one I've ever driven does this. No need for all the extra up and down shifting. A person that knows how to drive a stick shift will choose the proper gearing simply because they can see ahead and anticipate. No automatic can do that.

RT

aklim · #50 03-12-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

Most automatics are awful for several reasons. Shift quality is lacking, usually too soft unless just getting around. Even a manual valve body gives a disconnected feel simply because the connection to the engine is a viscous coupling. Not talking DSG or paddle shift here, just regular automatics, think Toyota Camry.... Frequently when you slow down to make a turn, automatics are late to downshift, then they upshift early again, only to downshift again at the next nearest corner. Every one I've ever driven does this. No need for all the extra up and down shifting. A person that knows how to drive a stick shift will choose the proper gearing simply because they can see ahead and anticipate. No automatic can do that.

RT

I think I don't have that problem because most of my autos that I own have been altered. Even the MB auto is much firmer on shifting. From what I can see, the shifts are made soft because that is how the public wants it to be. Even the MB shifts hard compared to what the other cars do. I changed the valve body on my Excursion and the springs to F350 springs. Problem is a lot of soccer moms that get SUVs want it to look like a truck but shift soft.

I don't think the autos are that bad a trade off when you consider that it seems to be ok most of the time. Sure, there are a few times where I find the auto not shifting the way I think it should (stock units). The few times somehow are hard to justify when you look at it on the whole and it is ok. Even the MB 722.6 trans gets it right most of the time. Again, if you want to talk autocross, I would agree that is where the stick shines. However, since I don't really autocross most of the time, I can't justify the inconvenience of a stick.

Bondavi · #51 03-13-2010, 07:15 AM

Automatics are so boring...w/ stickshifts you actually get to feel the progression of power *AND* control it, to speak.

However if I were offered a 556-hp Cadillac CTS-V, I'd pick the automatic, hands down. Save the manual for the DOHC fours, I think they work well there.

aklim · #52 03-13-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bondavi

Automatics are so boring...w/ stickshifts you actually get to feel the progression of power *AND* control it, to speak.

Besides Dr Feelgood, what is the application of this good feeling? In a tight road course, sure. That is not what I drive on a daily and hourly basis, is it? My stick F-body was great when I was doing autocross. I had to leave the auto in gear 2 otherwise. Off the track, it was a PITA to have to shift every so often in the city. I have had autos built to shift at the point I want and with the firmness so I have no real reason to bother with that level of control. Not for the convenience it offers.

rwthomas1 · #53 03-14-2010, 01:45 AM

So you call it convenient, I call it lazy and boring. We each have a definition and are happy with it.

RT

aklim · #54 03-14-2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwthomas1

So you call it convenient, I call it lazy and boring. We each have a definition and are happy with it.

RT

I don't take a "holier than thou" approach and that my way is the way to the holy grail. As I said, I don't see the boring part because having driven stick before, I don't see the excitement. Sure, when you first start, it might be something new. After a while, you get used to it and the novelty wears off. That is, until the kids come around and see that you have a sports car and a stick and you get to rail on the "dogamatics". Since I don't get into that and I don't autocross much and drag more, I am not sure what the excitement is.

Edit: You don't try and figure out which gear it has to go into, do you? The most I have done is downshift by 1 gear. I can't think that you downshift by more than that for the most part. Seems like it is almost equivalent to mastering the turn signal when making a turn. When I first started driving it, it was a challenge to NOT forget. Today, make a turn and it is automatic. Almost have to think NOT to do it during autocross as I am going onto the track. After a while, it became about as exciting as turning that turn signal. Almost habit. As such, I am not sure what the big excitement is. I bought a stick because I was younger and more impressionable and people said that once you go stick, you'll never go back. I almost lost my shirt till someone like you came along and bought that car and I could sell them on the excitement of a stick. Technically, I didn't lie since I was telling him about the excitement when I first started learning and omitted the "after a while, it got boring" part.

In an MB, no way you could give me a stick if it is 99 or earlier. I think they learned how to make a decent cupholder after 2005. My 99 cupholder is so cheesy that I have to hold my drinks when I drive

retmil46 · #55 03-14-2010, 02:02 PM

For my part, I'd advocate that a person should be taught how to drive a manual, regardless of what they normally drive - such that in an extremis situation, if the only vehicle available to them is a manual, they won't end up being stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

As far as personal preference between a manual and auto - whatever floats your boat. I started off driving an auto for the first ten years, until the crappy Ford auto tranny in my '79 Mustang ate itself in '88 and cost me $900 in then-money to have it rebuilt - I was strictly a manual guy for the next 18 years with an '87 Subaru wagon.

As far as current automatics being uber-reliable - the OEM's can STILL screw them up - my '05 Jeep Liberty CRD came with a POS torque converter that couldn't handle a 2.8 L diesel - DC did a "customer satisfaction recall" -

- where they just flopped in a new version of the same TC and then detuned the engine by 10% to make their cheap-a$$ TC hold together until out of warranty. I said "screw you very much", put in a billet TC from Suncoast Diesel on my own dime, which was able to handle an aftermarket tune from Inmotion, and haven't had a problem since even with 185 HP and 330 ft/lbs at the rear wheels.

aklim · #56 03-14-2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

For my part, I'd advocate that a person should be taught how to drive a manual, regardless of what they normally drive - such that in an extremis situation, if the only vehicle available to them is a manual, they won't end up being stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

I was strictly a manual guy for the next 18 years with an '87 Subaru wagon.

As far as current automatics being uber-reliable - the OEM's can STILL screw them up - my '05 Jeep Liberty CRD came with a POS torque converter that couldn't handle a 2.8 L diesel - DC did a "customer satisfaction recall" -

- where they just flopped in a new version of the same TC and then detuned the engine by 10% to make their cheap-a$$ TC hold together until out of warranty. I said "screw you very much", put in a billet TC from Suncoast Diesel on my own dime, which was able to handle an aftermarket tune from Inmotion, and haven't had a problem since even with 185 HP and 330 ft/lbs at the rear wheels.

Nah. Let them get stuck a few times and they will pick it up on their own.

If you are talking about smaller engines and cars, the difference will be larger than on a bigger engine. For smaller engines like that, I would say go with a stick. You don't have that much power to lose. 20HP in a 100HP car is more significant than say 22HP in a 300HP car.

I know my friend was breaking a T5 every season and a half on average when he took the Mustang out. Fact is, none of the transmissions out there are meant to be beaten on. Right now, in my Excursion, I have a trans from a builder that literally dares you to break it. When you break it, he fixes it. IF you break it within 2 yrs, he pays for shipping. Outside that, you pay for shipping. I put a 383 into my Firebird. The stock trans on my Firebird lasted 9 months with me babying it. Get it built and it lasted 3.5 years with me beating on it daily. If there wasn't snow, I would hit it WOT.