Problem is your perception of it as something like just another business. It's not. Any more than Faraday messing around with his equations was of commercial value. Buyring your head in the sand is no way for the country to progress.

- Peter.

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I do care about basic science and progress, I do not care about any specific country "progressing" (whatever that's supposed to mean)

I believe that unmanned space exploration provides a much larger return on investment than manned missions. In general, I think most "big science" should be cooperative efforts, funded by more than one nation and primarily implemented by private companies. I think we have outgrown the silly "flags and footsteps" era, at least I hope we have.

Having just sent a large check to the IRS, I'm not a fan of paying for efforts to stroke the national ego; giving everyone some viagra would be cheaper.

Yes I know. I of course have a diametrically opposed view which is why we will never agree.

I would contend that ROI has nothing to do with it, at least as far as robotic science missions are concerned. Those are for pure science and have nothing to do with economics.

That's the only era that will ever provide any progress. Everything else will be on the back of that, or there will be no progress.

You'd rather support welfare bums and corporate incompetents?

- Peter.

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2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

The only real benefit would come when we can send repair crews up to fix or refurbish equipment as an alternative to sending up a whole new replacement satellite.

I also think its important to keep being a main participant in manned space station projects, or else we end up sitting on the sidelines waiting for a ride from Russia or China, if they happen to have room.

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Sorry, I'm just a small government conservative and I'm not willing to rely on national governments to provide basic scientific progress. The original US manned space program wasn't about science, it was about the cold war.

I would prefer not to support most US government programs, I would prefer that they stay out of my way and take less of my money. However, since I paid enough 2009 income taxes to buy a pretty nice new benz, I would prefer that they not waste my money on symbolic efforts without tangible benefits.

In reality, it's probably cheaper to launch replacement satellites than to maintain a manned space capability. If fixing them is really cheaper, a private company will provide that service.

The advantage of international space stations is mostly political, not scientific.

Countries that "progess" in science lead the world, those that digress flounder. Personally, I prefer the US to lead.


A large payment means a proportionatly larger income. Federal taxes are the lowest they've been in decades. It's the local and state taxes that are outta control.

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My point was that manned space flights are stunts, not progress. The US government can spend that money on real science by providing grants based on merit and participating in international "big science" efforts. Don't confuse real scientific progress with national propaganda.

They are not so much science as feats of engineering. It is science and engineering hand in hand that built the technological civilization that supports you and your lifestyle. They certainly are progress but the US is currently chosing to turn its back on progress and embrace failure, allowing others to progress in their stead. Unfotunate considering who those others are. This is of course not a new phenomenon. The US lost the will to succeed decades ago in my opinion. Obama is simply the nail in the coffin.

Such as?

- Peter.

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2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
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1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

That's exactly what I mean by a stunt; it's not much different than building the tallest building or the fastest airplane. I'm an engineer (not a scientist) and I'm not interested in working on anything that doesn't have a real benefit. I thought the US manned space program was pretty cool when I was 10 or 12, but it was really just a national penis extension device; it was not real science, it was a cold war demonstration of power. There was some incidental science, but that was not it's purpose.

How about we go find a Higgs particle and validate the standard theory?

How about we get serious about nuclear fusion, which has been discussed for about 50 years without any real funding?

What about another space based telescope to replace the Hubble?

For that matter, how about doing some basic research on dark energy and dark matter?

Maybe we can fund some medical research based on stem cells, now that the crazies are gone?

If all those are too ambitious, how about we fund some serious bio-fuels research with a national goal of eliminating energy imports within 20 years?

In the vacuum of space, no one can hear you belch.

BTW, the Sun ain't no planet.

If I didn't know better, I would think that this conversation is going to end up in Uranus....

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That depends on your definition of "real benifet" doesn't it?

So what?

Europe's doing precisely that now because the US decided to fail in that field decades ago.

I'm all for it. But like most antispaceites you assume that absent funding for spaceflight that money will be diverted to your pet nerd projects. Not gonna happen.

I think that would be great. However see previous paragraph. And if you recall Hubble required numerous shuttle trips to keep it operational. We've just given up that capability.

That basic research is continuously ongoing, but it's univerisity based and will continue irrespective of government money for spaceflight or not. The two issues do not overlap.

They're not gone, just quiescent and if Obama turns out to be the one termer he increasingly looks like he'll be from my perspective they'll be back.

Green tech is nice and I'm all for it but will never replace outward expansion and if we devote all our energy to it we'll simply be eclipsed by others who are not so shortsighted.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I'm not assuming where these cost savings will be used, I was responding to your previous question and providing some examples of real science that could use additional funding.

As an alternative, I would be happy to pay less taxes.

If you really want to see manned space flights originating in the US, I would recommend investing in one of the private space initatives. Personnally, I'll pass on that investment.