God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal and unchangeable in His Being, Wisdom, Power, Holiness Justice, Goodness and Truth.
Anthropomorphisms are used to reveal certain characteristics of God's character ti the creatures.
God is a Spirit. That would be a very different media than the creation.

I tend to think that God inhabits a greater number of dimensions than we do. He is able to move into and out of our world much as we can imagine moving in and over a two dimensional world. Draw a stick figure, put a circle around him and he is "in prison", yet we could easily imagine grabbing the stick figure by the hand, lifting him away from the sheet of paper on which he lives and depositing him outside his " prison". Seems simple to us, but a "miracle" to stick-figure man. His description would be like " I was in prison, and then suddenly I was outside"
Just like us, the stick-figure man would be unable to conduct any scientific experiments to prove that someone from outside his world intervened to remove him from his prison. Some of his friends might believe his story, but others would tell him that he believed a fairytale.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

really? how exactly did you come to know this?

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

One can be naive about a behavior while being either guilty or innocent of it.

A child will lose his innocence one decision freely made, at a time. one can be innocent and wise. Or innocent and naive.

Thus, the metaphor of being born again is to have the the guiltless innocence of a child.

For example, I have done things in my life that I knew were wrong yet I did them anyway. That is loss of innocence. I would love to have the innocence back so the demonic influence of guilt could be driven from me into a herd of swine, then run over a cliff. Unfortunately for me, it isn't that simple or easy. Cynicism has replaced innocence.

Nowadays yes. 'Liberal' theologians about 25 or 30 years ago realized that unless theology was just sectarianism, it had to be done in a global context. So, yes, there are serious theologians doing that kind of stuff.
At one point in my checkered past I was teaching assistant to Fritz Buri, professor of theology at the University of Basel and one of the first European theologians to engage in this kind of enterprise. He was interested in drawing the connections between Christian and Buddhist theology.

I'll disagree with your first line of thought. "Good" is a word in a human language so God's existence can't pre-exist human constructions. Even the phrase 'God's existence' is a human construction.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

yes, for a "divinely inspired" tome, the bible does seem to be the writing of a human. ( i know, that sly, all-knowing one is just up to his usual tricks. of course, i would want nothing to do with such a cruel trickster, if indeed he/she/it? did actually exist. )

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

it seems obvious - to the non-believer - that the "divine word" seems to be "revised" all the time - no doubt, through further "divine" influences? - just to keep it more, uh, marketable? brings to mind the timely "revisions" of the mormons in the 70's, in re: african americans and irs status. or l.ron's continual "additions" to " the bridge".

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

uh, i thought the "innocence" of a child was lost through the actions of some external forces. i.e. parents, peers, indoctrination by authorities? i am reminded of brando's speech in "last tango". or am i just thinking of my own life?

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

In this thread I will continue to try to stay on one side of the argument, but it is a slippery thread and I may soon lose my grasp.

I don't think the Abrahamic writings or traditions speak to the origin of communication. I dimly recall that some native American group had a coyote story about that, but maybe I read that in a novel. The only occasion in the Bible in which language is a main subject is the Babel story, which I guess is an attempt to explain why God would create the burden of so many mutually unintelligible languages.

So if the concept of "good" arose from man, absent God, what is the purpose of the second Genesis story (the garden, snake, apple, etc). To me, that story is about how man lost his innocence and thereby gained knowledge of "good" and "evil". (I'm not going literal with this stuff, so bear with me). The garden metaphor describes Man's intimacy with God. the relationship is dependent on Man's innocence. When that was destroyed, so was the relationship. It is the job of the Abrahamic religions to restore that innocence of spirit to regain that relationship with God.

It looks like I have been slipping over to your side of the argument, despite my intention not to. Because if the recognition of good vs evil comes through the intentional action of man, then it appears that the concept is independent of God.

But wait, there's more! (Ginsu knives available later)

The concept of good and evil existed before man. Remember that man gained that knowledge through disobedience, while in the Garden. That knowledge came from an external source (revealed in the willful act of consuming the forbidden fruit), not from within man. God created all of the animals and plants before he created man. Therefore, the snake and the tree were of God's creation. God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Consuming the fruit of the tree revealed that knowledge to man. I KNEW he shouldn't have taken the red pill!

Are you suggesting that the human construct of "Good" emerges as a natural consequence of human communication? I can't think of a counter argument to that. It makes sense that 'good' and 'bad'

That's a good example and raises an interesting question concerning say, Elizabeth Smart. The kid was abducted and repeatedly raped by her abductor. There is no indication that she willingly left with him and every indication that she never accepted the bizarre conditions in which she lived. She lost her naivete, no question. Did she also lose her innocence or was it stolen from her (a third condition of man with respect to innocence)?

I hate it when concepts proliferate faster than explanations.

Yes, that's what I'm arguing.


That whole part of the Genesis story---the Garden, the Sin, the Alienation--is an account of the transition from pre-literate hunter/gatherer tribal life with primal religion to agriculture/commerce/city life with writing, private property, and big gods. So not only is 'good' as we know it constructed by our language, it's also constructed by our social arrangements, the upheaval in which is described in that story.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

i think both.

by the way, seem to be referencing some biblical tale, with the transferring of your guilt to a herd of swine - i believe the messiah exorcised some demons into a herd, causing them to run off a cliff, or into a lake and drown, or something of that sort.

anyway, i would presume you were raised a catholic or baptist, not that it really matters. me, i suffered under the lutherans (and a few other ideologies and individuals and institutions.)

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

My Dad was a complete atheist and my mom, a faithful Episcopalian. They struck a deal between each other concerning the religious upbringing of their children (six of us). We all had to go to a church every week but we could attend any church e wanted to. So my older brother and I sampled lots of different churches for as far back into my childhood that I can remember.

He and I stayed with the Friends for the longest time of all the churches we visited. The old guy who taught my Sunday school class was a Quaker missionary doctor to New Guinea. he was 93 or so in the early sixties when he taught us kids. I still remember some of his classes, which were actually socratic conversations that were full of wonder to a young boy. I owe that man a lot.

In retrospect, I think that was a great education.

Goodness and humanity or evil and depravity can exist in the absence or presence of deity. So, what's the virtue of a deity?

He keeps the planet from slipping off the turtle's back?

It all depends on how you front-load the question. Your assertion in the first sentence is one big, bold assumption -- that you understand those concepts in the same way that the God-creator understands those things. Why should that be the case?

ah, the special exemption. i feel like i'm back in sunday school class. you are trying to make a logical argument about an irrational, arbitrary belief system. sorry, but it's not convincing.

to be honest, i think innocence is lost when children are indoctrinated into this - or any belief system. a friend of mine, who is shrink who deals mostly with children, recounted the many patients - children - who developed all sorts of neuroses, after being regaled with tales of eternal damnation, old testament slaughter of "philistines", an omniscient being who sees all, knows all and has no beginning or end. hard stuff for a young mind to deal with.

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."