Game over for Gov. Walker? - Page 26 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #**376** 06-08-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Oh, is it that simple? You have all the answers. Now I understand completely.

Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you keep saying but yet you can't answer the question posted. Not sure what to say.

Botnst · #**377** 06-10-2012, 09:44 AM

Do what he did: Fahrt and leave.

Brian Carlton · #**378** 06-10-2012, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

As in all cases the union contracted corporations set the wages for all schools more or less in a practical sense. If not for the union school corporations all corporations could and would pay their teachers less money.

The entire discussion of teachers unions is of ongoing irritation to me.

Like most municipalities we have a powerful teacher's union here. The union handles all negotiations between the district and the teachers. Over the past 20 years, the union has wangled increases in salary averaging 7% per year, despite the economic condition at the time of the negotiation. The typical teacher with 15 years in the district is now earning about $90K.

Once could easily make the argument that the teacher is not worth $90K for the simple reason that NO TEACHER can ever leave the district and get a job in any other district and be paid anywhere near $90K. These teachers are, effectively, marooned in the district they teach for the rest of their working lives. In a capitalist system, they are not worth $90K to any other district in the United States.

So, one could easily make an argument that they are highly overpaid, strictly due to the benefits of the teacher's union. Excellent situation for them..............not so good for me. The taxes on the "average" house with 2200 square feet are now about $12K...........depending on the district and the age of the house. Wealthier districts with higher tax bases have lower rates and older houses, assessed 50 years ago or more, also have lower rates.

Of course, the perpetual argument, perpetrated by the union is that you have to "pay" to get good teachers and they are "worth" what you pay them. I'll leave the conclusion of whether that is factual up to you.

t walgamuth · #**379** 06-10-2012, 10:54 PM

Teachers don't make anywhere near that here. Average 90K?

I hear the cost of living is pretty high out there, isn't it? Aren't the wages higher there to compensate for the higher cost of living? I hear the property taxes are killer....teachers have to pay taxes too.

As far as "wangling raises" I always figure that an agreement between two parties is fair as long as both sides agree to it. The union representatives did not hold guns to the heads of the School corporations did they? For Christ's sake, they cannot even strike legally.

If you don't like the agreements talk to your school board members. they have agreed to it.

Brian Carlton · #**380** 06-10-2012, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Teachers don't make anywhere near that here. Average 90K?

I hear the cost of living is pretty high out there, isn't it? Aren't all the wages higher there to compensate for the higher cost of living?

That's not the point.

The issue is the fact that the teachers are paid far more than they can earn on the open market............solely due to the union. Good for them...........not so good for the taxpayer.

t walgamuth · #**381** 06-11-2012, 06:19 AM

It is the open market. that is what the school boards are willing to pay. Teachers cannot even strike legally.

Brian Carlton · #**382** 06-11-2012, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

It is the open market. that is what the school boards are willing to pay. Teachers cannot even strike legally.

You cannot seriously believe that.

It is the definition of a "closed" market. The school board has no choice but to cave in to the demands of the teacher's union, otherwise they'll picket in front of their homes and turn the morons in the district against the board. They are very good at that.

If it were an open market, the school board would hire an entire new crop at 1/2 pay.

MS Fowler · #**383** 06-11-2012, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

You cannot seriously believe that.

It is the definition of a "closed" market. The school board has no choice but to cave in to the demands of the teacher's union, otherwise they'll picket in front of their homes and turn the morons in the district against the board. They are very good at that.

If it were an open market, the school board would hire an entire new crop at 1/2 pay.

Compare the pay and benefits that public schools teachers get with what the private schools teachers get in the same area. If they pay and benefits are similar for both groups, then I would conclude that it is an open market. If the pay and benefits are not close, I would conclude that the system is "closed". Anyone agree?

Brian Carlton · #**384** 06-11-2012, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Compare the pay and benefits that public schools teachers get with what the private schools teachers get in the same area. If they pay and benefits are similar for both groups, then I would conclude that it is an open market. If the pay and benefits are not close, I would conclude that the system is "closed". Anyone agree?

The system is the definition of a "closed" market. The district cannot go and hire anybody they choose at whatever pay scale is mutually agreed.

The teacher cannot get another job anywhere else in the United States at that pay grade.

I know this stuff is difficult for you............but, try to read it the first time.

t walgamuth · #**385** 06-11-2012, 08:44 AM

[QUOTE=Brian Carlton;2953516].... otherwise they'll picket in front of their homes and turn the morons in the district against the board. They are very good at that.

This is what we quaintly call in our country "freedom of speech".

Clearly you do not value teachers. One might conclude that you feel you are so much more intelligent than ordinary "morons" that you could have gotten by without any formal education.

Brian Carlton · #**386** 06-11-2012, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

This is what we quaintly call in our country "freedom of speech".

Clearly you do not value teachers. One might conclude that you feel you are so much more intelligent than ordinary "morons" that you could have gotten by without any formal education.

My opinion on the value of a teacher is irrelevant. The point, which you are not going to walk away from, is the fact that it's a closed market and the teachers in that market cannot be paid that amount of money anywhere else in the country.

By your argument, and the morons in this district, we have to have "good teachers" and, therefore, no amount of money is too much money. Hell, if they asked for $200K, the argument would still hold. How about $200K for a "good teacher".............sure, sign me right up.

MS Fowler · #**387** 06-11-2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

The system is the definition of a "closed" market. The district cannot go and hire anybody they choose at whatever pay scale is mutually agreed.

The teacher cannot get another job anywhere else in the United States at that pay grade.

I know this stuff is difficult for you............but, try to read it the first time.

Brian,
I thought I was posting in support of your argument. Are you so opposed to what I write that at the mere sight of my name on a post, you attack?

t walgamuth · #**388** 06-11-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

My opinion on the value of a teacher is irrelevant. The point, which you are not going to walk away from, is the fact that it's a closed market and the teachers in that market cannot be paid that amount of money anywhere else in the country.

By your argument, and the morons in this district, we have to have "good teachers" and, therefore, no amount of money is too much money. Hell, if they asked for $200K, the argument would still hold. How about $200K for a "good teacher".............sure, sign me right up.

What teachers are paid elsewhere has no relevance to the question. Teachers in Crooked creek Tenessee make half what teachers here do, does that make it unfair that teachers here make what they do?

Teachers here max out at about 60K with all the bumps for experience and education. My wife is at the top and has gotten only COL increases each year for about 15 years now. Many years if the state budget does not provide enough there have been no increases or a half percent and such.

If you go to the poorest district in Indiana you will find that the teachers are paid about 1/3 less, if you go to the most affluent I expect you would find about 20% higher.

I could say that I could hire an engineer to do what you do from backwater louisiana for half what you charge in NY, does that make you a ripoff artist?

Everything costs more in the big city.

I bet you get a lot more rent for your rental properties than they do in Backwoods tenessee too. I guess that makes you a ripoff artist.

In this country traditionally if working people decide they need a union in their place of business they can have one. That is the law now and will remain so until the R's overturn it, and I am sure that is high on their list to do. Each contract period your board can agree to a contract or not. Each teacher can also agree to the contract or walk. Seems like a free market to me.

Perhaps if your school board and administrators had treated their teachers better back when they would not have felt they needed the union.

Neither Caterpiller or Subaru here in Lafayette are union. They do treat their employees pretty well and pay them well too and the employees are content to keep it as it is. It is free market.

But maybe the laws are different in NY. (I doubt they are, significantly).

Brian Carlton · #**389** 06-11-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

What teachers are paid elsewhere has no relevance to the question. Teachers in Crooked creek Tenessee make half what teachers here do, does that make it unfair that teachers here make what they do?

Teachers here max out at about 60K with all the bumps for experience and education. My wife is at the top and has gotten only COL increases each year for about 15 years now. Many years if the state budget does not provide enough there have been no increases or a half percent and such.

If you go to the poorest district in Indiana you will find that the teachers are paid about 1/3 less, if you go to the most affluent I expect you would find about 20% higher.

I could say that I could hire an engineer to do what you do from backwater louisiana for half what you charge in NY, does that make you a ripoff artist?

Everything costs more in the big city.

I bet you get a lot more rent for your rental properties than they do in Backwoods tenessee too. I guess that makes you a ripoff artist.

In this country traditionally if working people decide they need a union in their place of business they can have one. That is the law now and will remain so until the R's overturn it, and I am sure that is high on their list to do. Each contract period your board can agree to a contract or not. Each teacher can also agree to the contract or walk. Seems like a free market to me.

Perhaps if your school board and administrators had treated their teachers better back when they would not have felt they needed the union.

Neither Caterpiller or Subaru here in Lafayette are union. They do treat their employees pretty well and pay them well too and the employees are content to keep it as it is. It is free market.

But maybe the laws are different in NY. (I doubt they are, significantly).

You still don't get it.

It has nothing, whatsoever to do with me, despite your feeble attempts to make it so.

My rental properties are subject to market forces. I don't get a union representative to arrange a rent that is far above the market.

No, you could not get any engineer to charge less than I do in NY because my business is not local and I do business with other companies throughout the United States and Europe. If anyone in backwater LA wants to compete with me, they have every opportunity to do so.

The teachers who are employed with the union are benefiting from the fact that their salaries are negotiated by the union without regard to qualifications or capabilities and without regard to any value in the marketplace.

Said teacher will not be paid any amount of money that is close to $90K if they had to go out and compete for the job that they have now. The only reason they earn $90K is due to the union negotiations on their behalf in a closed marketplace where the district has no other options.

Brian Carlton · #**390** 06-11-2012, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Are you so opposed to what I write that at the mere sight of my name on a post, you attack?

Unfortunately, you've deteriorated to a troll. Your mind is closed to any real discussion on anything political and anything that has been presented to change your opinion is flatly ignored by you. Many folks on here have presented good arguments to easily refute your positions, including myself, and you just flatly ignore them and continue onward with your Republican bias.

You're quite crafty in your responses to make it appear that you're making a query, when, in reality, you have nothing to discuss.