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  #16  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:20 AM
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Applied broadly, there are substantial problems with the subjective side of defining the term "performance."

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  #17  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by strelnik View Post
Moral: if you cultivate initiative in your work force, be ready to reward it for what it's worth.

In other words, capitalists have to share the pie with people who add real value, not give them a plaque and a lay-off notice. The smart ones learn this, as Bill Gates found out.
I think sales is a prime example. I've got a couple reps with B.S. degrees in Business, a couple with 4 year B.S. Turf Science/Horticulture degrees and experience as golf course superintendents, one with 2 year Turf Science and 15 years as a golf course super, one with an associates degree and 10 years of sales in the industry prior to working for us. A wide range of education and background but everything can be measured by their bottom line sales performance. I won't say our experience is that the amount of education is inversely proportionate to total sales, but the one with "the least" does "the most" for us by a fair amount. One thing I do notice is that the rep is very inquisitive and wants to learn, more so than the others. Or maybe they feel the need to work that much harder to prove themselves?

I can't say that we're as good when it comes to rewarding our warehouse guys. It's just not as quantifiable. Most of them are H.S. grads, a couple have G.E.D.'s. But there are a couple that come to mind that are very capable of taking on more and being more self-directed. My brother and I are really working towards fostering the right atmosphere with the right people and rewarding them accordingly. It has not been a strength in the past. There is a fair amount of peer pressure to not go "above and beyond" but I think the right amount of independence, responsibility and compensation can break the cycle of complacency. It's a work in progress and we'll see how it goes.
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2011, 10:46 AM
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The pendulum swings forward as well as back, propelled by excesses at either end of the employer/employee tug and pull. Employers, given too much power are no better than employees with similar power. Their inherent self interests will insure "constant change."
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  #19  
Old 03-14-2011, 11:57 AM
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Pay for performance is a bait and switch plan. I began my career under an education/seniority system in the early 90's. It predicted I would make XXX after 20 years. We switched to a Merit Pay system 5 yrs into my career. I'm now roughly at 20 yrs and I have never been rated anything else other than at the absolute top level. YET, my pay is $20k PER YEAR less than what the education/seniority system said it was going to be at 20 years.

This exact plan has been promoted by numerous political types as ideal for rewarding excellence and punishing mediocrity. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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  #20  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:25 PM
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Pay for performance is a bait and switch plan. I began my career under an education/seniority system in the early 90's. It predicted I would make XXX after 20 years. We switched to a Merit Pay system 5 yrs into my career. I'm now roughly at 20 yrs and I have never been rated anything else other than at the absolute top level. YET, my pay is $20k PER YEAR less than what the education/seniority system said it was going to be at 20 years.

This exact plan has been promoted by numerous political types as ideal for rewarding excellence and punishing mediocrity. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Here is the problem I see. Did the prediction make a guess under the current (at that time) conditions? Take the nursing shortage. If you calculated your worth after X years like one of the wife's old friends did, she was worth more later on because there was a shortage and companies were willing to pay signing bonuses. Take what a friend did as a computer programmer and he is worth less than predicted because the market didn't perform as predicted and there were more programmers than thought at that time.

So this begs the question. Can you walk yo to your boss and tell him that you are making too little? I know there were 3 computer people in the section I was in. 2 of them were good and got job offers that paid more. They went to the boss and told him that either they see some "kick ass" raises next eval or they will consider their options. 3rd guy was less than mediocere. When raise time came, they got almost $2 in raises and he got $0.15 in a raise. So, is there any way you can petition your boss? If you are as good as you say you are, why would he turn down a REASONABLE request? Obviously if your request is out of the world, he'd laugh you out of the office.
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  #21  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:27 PM
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Is Rasmussen politically neutral? Or is he the darling of the right-of-center?
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  #22  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:32 PM
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Here is the problem I see. Did the prediction make a guess under the current (at that time) conditions? Take the nursing shortage. If you calculated your worth after X years like one of the wife's old friends did, she was worth more later on because there was a shortage and companies were willing to pay signing bonuses. Take what a friend did as a computer programmer and he is worth less than predicted because the market didn't perform as predicted and there were more programmers than thought at that time.

So this begs the question. Can you walk yo to your boss and tell him that you are making too little? I know there were 3 computer people in the section I was in. 2 of them were good and got job offers that paid more. They went to the boss and told him that either they see some "kick ass" raises next eval or they will consider their options. 3rd guy was less than mediocere. When raise time came, they got almost $2 in raises and he got $0.15 in a raise. So, is there any way you can petition your boss? If you are as good as you say you are, why would he turn down a REASONABLE request? Obviously if your request is out of the world, he'd laugh you out of the office.
Talking to the boss is not possible in our circumstances. It wasn't a prediction, it was a indication of future facts. A school in a different system less than a quarter mile away from mine did not go to a merit pay system but retained it's education/seniority system. The current pay differentials between us reflect the situation I described.
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  #23  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:34 PM
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Well, their background is vastly different. NPs are about 80% of what the MD gets paid so for rural areas, there are savings to be had.

We are thinking of that but there are a lot of complications. For instance, as an MD you can easily get financing for the clinic but as an NP you have to go thru more hoops.

I don't know about your state but here in WI, an NP is able to write Schedule II narcotics and order any tests necessary and refer. Different states vary.
It's the same here. NP's can order all meds, tests and referrals. There is functionally no difference. The same thing is true of what are called Physician's Assistants, although they can't go into private practice and must report to a supervising MD or DO. I saw a PA for a while as I was on a waiting list to get in with the internist I see now, and she did a great job. She diagnosed a bone spur in my foot that 3 different MD's had failed to see in spite of my repeated complaints. MD's around here are so swamped that they take on PAs or NPs who end up seeing the bulk of their patients first. Kind of an ongoing triage.
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  #24  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Pay for performance is a bait and switch plan. I began my career under an education/seniority system in the early 90's. It predicted I would make XXX after 20 years. We switched to a Merit Pay system 5 yrs into my career. I'm now roughly at 20 yrs and I have never been rated anything else other than at the absolute top level. YET, my pay is $20k PER YEAR less than what the education/seniority system said it was going to be at 20 years.

This exact plan has been promoted by numerous political types as ideal for rewarding excellence and punishing mediocrity. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Some organizations also have cash bonuses separate from the system for immediate impact actions. They are not a given, but then, neither is immediate impact special performance.
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  #25  
Old 03-14-2011, 12:51 PM
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Talking to the boss is not possible in our circumstances.
I'm curious as to why. Can't you offer your services elsewhere or is there some issue with that?
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  #26  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:00 PM
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It's the same here. NP's can order all meds, tests and referrals. There is functionally no difference. The same thing is true of what are called Physician's Assistants, although they can't go into private practice and must report to a supervising MD or DO. I saw a PA for a while as I was on a waiting list to get in with the internist I see now, and she did a great job. She diagnosed a bone spur in my foot that 3 different MD's had failed to see in spite of my repeated complaints.

MD's around here are so swamped that they take on PAs or NPs who end up seeing the bulk of their patients first. Kind of an ongoing triage.
I'm curious. Where are you at? Over here a PA has to have a supervisory relationship while an NP has a collaborative relationship. While researching the viabiality of opening a clinic, we found that there are a few PAs that have opened their own clinic. Was curious as to how they managed it.

I think that is a billing issue. NPs cost less but they bill under an MD so they use them as extenders. Same fee, less cost.
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  #27  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:06 PM
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If "Most American Adults think how much money an individual is paid should depend more on what they get done on the job rather than their educational background or how long they’ve worked for a company.", just who are most Americans talking about-themselves?
Aren't most workers paid what they negotiate?
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  #28  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:16 PM
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I'm curious as to why. Can't you offer your services elsewhere or is there some issue with that?
It's complex. I, along with virtually ever other teacher in the US, work in a bureaucracy. One reason is that no individual's pay can be raised above any others who have the same merit rating according to the rules of the merit system in place. The other is that the money to do such a thing is not available. Since the money did not have to be spent on teacher's salaries it has been and is being spent on other things. (such as administrators. While it is almost impossible to believe, for every full time faculty member in the system in which I teach, there are 1.2 full time administrators) In other words, the merit pay system was a method of re-allocating funds. The only way to change that allocation would be to return to a system which by legal requirement changed the way money had to be spent.

As for merit pay improving efficiency and teaching, such a claim is absurd. My wife (who is by the way, not on a merit system) will be observed by an administrator (who is paid far higher than a teacher), at least 5 times this year. Next year the observation form will be at least 56 pages long and will have to be filled out by an administrator for every single teacher in her school. Does anyone who has actually worked under these conditions think that it improves the quality of teaching? I see absolutely no evidence that it does.
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:21 PM
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It's complex. I, along with virtually ever other teacher in the US, work in a bureaucracy. One reason is that no individual's pay can be raised above any others who have the same merit rating according to the rules of the merit system in place. The other is that the money to do such a thing is not available. Since the money did not have to be spent on teacher's salaries it has been and is being spent on other things. (such as administrators. While it is almost impossible to believe, for every full time faculty member in the system in which I teach, there are 1.2 full time administrators) In other words, the merit pay system was a method of re-allocating funds. The only way to change that allocation would be to return to a system which by legal requirement changed the way money had to be spent.

As for merit pay improving efficiency and teaching, such a claim is absurd. My wife (who is by the way, not on a merit system) will be observed by an administrator (who is paid far higher than a teacher), at least 5 times this year. Next year the observation form will be at least 56 pages long and will have to be filled out by an administrator for every single teacher in her school. Does anyone who has actually worked under these conditions think that it improves the quality of teaching? I see absolutely no evidence that it does.
The standard tests use to gauge a student's educational progress often result in teachers teaching to the test, said test being constructed by a committee most likely not living in the school district were the tests are given.
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  #30  
Old 03-14-2011, 01:34 PM
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I think sometimes you can base it off the research grants they get. More grants, more work, more money for the university. I know a husband and wife who worked for the same department. One of them got tenure in 2 years and the other in 7 years.
This sounds a lot like one of the reasons why the global warming hoax was promulgated for years, before it was debunked and exposed for what it really is - a hoax.

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