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aklim · #91 08-18-2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

Big difference between killing to eliminate pain and killing in cold blood for punishment.

Not always. Sometimes it is in an animal shelter to make room for newer ones and sometimes because they are disabled, etc, etc. Medicine is not some sort of holy institute

MTI · #92 08-18-2011, 05:32 PM

2010 Article: Group to Censure Lethal Injection Participation by Members

About half of the 35 states performing executions, including Virginia and North Carolina, require a doctor to be present. Other states have also recruited doctors, including anesthesiologists, to play a role in executions involving lethal injections. In some jurisdictions, anesthesiologists consult prison officials on dosages. In others, they insert catheters and infuse the three-drug cocktails.

Anesthesiologists and Capital Punishment

Professional Standing
The ABA has incorporated the AMA’s Code of Medical Ethics, Opinion E-2.06 (June 2000) in its Professional Standing Policy.

ABA certification includes more than passing examinations; it also includes maintaining high professional and ethical standards. Specifically, it is the ABA’s Professional Standing Policy that diplomates should use their clinical skills and judgment for promoting an individual's health and welfare. To do otherwise would undermine a basic ethical foundation of medicine which is – first do no harm.

If diplomates of the ABA participate in an execution by lethal injection, they may be subject to disciplinary action, including revocation of their ABA diplomate status.

crs82 · #93 08-18-2011, 05:36 PM

I wouldn't want to find out my physician was an abortionist.
I'll go so far as to say abolish both abortion and the death penalty. That should make lots of people happy and angry as well. The sign of a truly great decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

I wouldn't want to have an abortionist as my physician, no. I'll plead the 5th as to whether I think it should be legal or not.

crs82 · #94 08-18-2011, 05:49 PM

What would they have killed, if not someone? It was a living organism, (some call it a fetus, some call it a baby) that is no longer alive. It did not die on its own, it's death was caused. It was human, as two humans caused it to come into being (it was not another form of animal). Brain activity isn't always used to declare death. Often, it is lack of pulse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

If you can prove that the abortionist killed someone, sure. Can the aborted fetus be subject to the same test you and I would have to pass for to have a physician declare death?

Simply put, we have to meet certain criteria for a physician to declare whether you are brain dead or not. Can your fetus pass that?

crs82 · #95 08-18-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Not always. Sometimes it is in an animal shelter to make room for newer ones and sometimes because they are disabled, etc, etc. Medicine is not some sort of holy institute

I agree. Medicine is a tool, nothing more or less. It has been used for evil as well as good. I think doctors should aspire to a greater ethic because of the power of their training, but they are still men.

aklim · #96 08-18-2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs82

What would they have killed, if not someone? It was a living organism, (some call it a fetus, some call it a baby) that is no longer alive. It did not die on its own, it's death was caused.

It was human, as two humans caused it to come into being (it was not another form of animal).

Brain activity isn't always used to declare death. Often, it is lack of pulse.

What did you kill when you removed the tumor? A ball of tissue. It is live tissue but I wouldn't call it a person or being.

Pre-human, for want of a better term is NOT a live human any more than that pile of parts is a car nor can call it such.

There is more than brain activity. Pupillary response is another. There is a list if you really want to get technical about it. A lack of pulse has not been the gold standard for a long time. It is an indicator but not THE only one. We can keep you "alive" by the pulse standard, keep your body running, etc, etc. So theoretically, could I not destroy your brain enough and keep you "alive" and not say you were murdered? After all, your heart is beating and your systems can be fed and kept running and therefore, I call it a bunch of live tissue and you call it still being "alive".

aklim · #97 08-18-2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs82

I agree. Medicine is a tool, nothing more or less. It has been used for evil as well as good. I think doctors should aspire to a greater ethic because of the power of their training, but they are still men.

Again, why do we demand more of them because they know more than we do in a certain field?

crs82 · #98 08-18-2011, 07:39 PM

I don't demand more of them in a general sense. I've known physicians that are pretty wretched people outside of their chosen field.

crs82 · #99 08-18-2011, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What did you kill when you removed the tumor? A ball of tissue. It is live tissue but I wouldn't call it a person or being.

Pre-human, for want of a better term is NOT a live human any more than that pile of parts is a car nor can call it such.

There is more than brain activity. Pupillary response is another. There is a list if you really want to get technical about it. A lack of pulse has not been the gold standard for a long time. It is an indicator but not THE only one. We can keep you "alive" by the pulse standard, keep your body running, etc, etc. So theoretically, could I not destroy your brain enough and keep you "alive" and not say you were murdered? After all, your heart is beating and your systems can be fed and kept running and therefore, I call it a bunch of live tissue and you call it still being "alive".

This leads us to the brink of what we call being "aware." Is a tumor "aware"? Not likely. Is a "pre-human aware?" I don't know, but I sure don't want to be the one to decide it isn't...if it is.

tjts1 · #**100** 08-18-2011, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs82

I wouldn't want to find out my physician was an abortionist.
I'll go so far as to say abolish both abortion and the death penalty. That should make lots of people happy and angry as well. The sign of a truly great decision.

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs82

This leads us to the brink of what we call being "aware." Is a tumor "aware"? Not likely. Is a "pre-human aware?" I don't know, but I sure don't want to be the one to decide it isn't...if it is.

Tell you what. If you care so much about the fetus that's been removed from a woman's body, you should be willing to have it surgically inserted into your body. It should make lots of people happy and angry as well. The sign of a truly great decision.

chilcutt · #**101** 08-18-2011, 08:55 PM

^^ Just a selfish mans thought. Such men are far from being a source of strength to this community. They are of no use in a conversation, and therefore dismissed as being foolish and illogical.

aklim · #**102** 08-18-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crs82

This leads us to the brink of what we call being "aware." Is a tumor "aware"? Not likely. Is a "pre-human aware?" I don't know, but I sure don't want to be the one to decide it isn't...if it is.

Take the accepted test to decide if a person (we are talking about a person after all so it should fall into that category) would be alive or not. Run it thru the same tests that an ER would use and that is the deciding factor. Flash a light and look for pupillary response, for instance. If that is a test the MD will use in the ER, do it. No response, not alive, same with fetus. You are not deciding. The test results point one way or the other. I am not failing you on the physics test you took. I am not deciding if you pass or fail the test. The grade gives you an "F" or an "A". It is that simple.

aklim · #**103** 08-18-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

^^ Just a selfish mans thought. Such men are far from being a source of strength to this community. They are of no use in a conversation, and therefore dismissed as being foolish and illogical.

As opposed to an advocate who simply directs people to do something that he/she cannot and/or will not do themselves? He is simply stating that if you want to germinate that blob of cells into a person and I don't want to host it, you go for it.

chilcutt · #**104** 08-18-2011, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

As opposed to an advocate who simply directs people to do something that he/she cannot and/or will not do themselves? He is simply stating that if you want to germinate that blob of cells into a person and I don't want to host it, you go for it.

If you say so.

I simply find it illogical to suggest someone should have an aborted fetus surgically implanted into their body.

Ludicris actually.