Ali tribute - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #16 11-10-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Yep, for years I refused to call him anything but Cassius Clay, but then time wore it out of my vocabulary.

I have never understood why people refused to call him by his chosen name. It seemed important to him as a statement about who he was and what he wanted to represent. Who are we to think we should tell him what to call himself?

hill · #17 11-10-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

I think that Ali did that, although I can see your point.

He had unbelievable hand speed. In the video of his old fights, it seems as if his opponent's head would snap back before you even knew that Ali was throwing a punch. Ali could also move his own head back just enough to make his opponent miss. Must have been frustrating to fight him, especially with him running his mouth.

And the rope-a-dope thing against Foreman was pure genius and bravery. The last round of that fight is the best thing I have ever seen in a boxing ring.

Ali is definitely on the short list of the greatest American athletes. (Babe Ruth being the greatest, IMHO.)

Definitely on the list. My favorites are Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens and the most dominate in his field Secretariat.

Honus · #18 11-10-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hill

...Secretariat.

My favorite youtube video: Secretariat Belmont Stakes 73' & extended post race coverage - YouTube I love the disbelief in the announcer's voice when Secretariat really started opening up his lead and the way the crowd went crazy as he came down the stretch, still pulling away from the field.

tonkovich · #19 11-10-2011, 09:22 PM

larry: how was the united states "protecting" itself by killing vietnamese people? were they about to invade the country? is there something i missed in history class? as ali said: " no vietnamese ever called me ni^^er".

t walgamuth · #20 11-10-2011, 11:15 PM

I would say on the subject of Viet Nam history comes down on the side of Ali.

chilcutt · #21 11-11-2011, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I would say on the subject of Viet Nam history comes down on the side of Ali.

Agreed. Thats why at the time he made his profound statement, even at a young age, I could identify with what Ali was putting down.

Looking back (I know hindsight-right?), and having been to many places in S.E. Asia in the last 2 years, I find it very hard to believe that the average Vietnamese had any time, inclination, opportunity to travel to the United States to invade it.

I have serious doubts thats 99% of them could tell you where the U.S. is on a map..if they can even read a map.

Not to take anything away from the U.S. servicemen, who fought bravely, gave their lives and limbs following orders from above..but quite frankly..in my estimation they got pimped.

elchivito · #22 11-11-2011, 08:20 AM

He's of them mohammedans isn't he? Well there you go.

Ali's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. He's not, technically a draft dodger. I have far more respect for someone who stands for his convictions than someone who runs off and hides in another country. Love it or Leave it is a simplistic, tired old worn out saw.

lutzTD · #23 11-11-2011, 11:58 AM

I remember as a kid my father just hated him because of the constant talk. I loved it. In the end it made people realize there was a show aspect to sport. Its a given now but it was revolutionary when he did. I dont remember too much of the draft dodger stuff so for me that was never a part of it. I was fortunate to grow up in the tween years from vietnam to desert storm.

t walgamuth · #24 11-11-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

He's of them mohammedans isn't he? Well there you go.

Ali's conviction was overturned by the Supreme Court. He's not, technically a draft dodger. I have far more respect for someone who stands for his convictions than someone who runs off and hides in another country. Love it or Leave it is a simplistic, tired old worn out saw.

Exactly.

There is more than one way to love your country.

There is blind love. (you know who you are

)

And there is tough love, like Ali practiced, and like I do.

I remember when he came back to the US after having traveled in (I believe it was) Russia. A reporter asked him to compare his experiences there to living in the US. Ali was speechless for a few seconds while he pondered his response......then softly began singing "America, america,..."

Great answer.

Even though there was not racial predjudice in other lands he recognized that here was still the best place to live.

Air&Road · #25 11-11-2011, 01:18 PM

The purpose, or justification has nothing to do with the man being a draft dodger. He was called and he did not answer. What was his reason?

Air&Road · #26 11-11-2011, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Exactly.

There is more than one way to love your country.

There is blind love. (you know who you are

)

And there is tough love, like Ali practiced, and like I do.

I remember when he came back to the US after having traveled in (I believe it was) Russia. A reporter asked him to compare his experiences there to living in the US. Ali was speechless for a few seconds while he pondered his response......then softly began singing "America, america,..."

Great answer.

Even though there was not racial predjudice in other lands he recognized that here was still the best place to live.

Great example of how liberal he was. Only a liberal person would refuse to answer the call of the country he loves. It's a perfect case of wanting something for nothing. He wants the freedom, but wants someone else to pay for it.

t walgamuth · #27 11-11-2011, 04:48 PM

He was a conscienceous objector I believe. Said he was a Muslim minister.

The price he paid was significant....gave up the best years of his career.

I suspect if he had gone to the army he could have boxed and continued as he served. He did not go because he did not believe in the war. He also may have believed it was unfair as the number of blacks serving in nam was disproportionate to the general population.

But according to you a person is obligated to serve no matter what hare brained war our fearless leaders lead us into or he is scum.

I have never seen a statistic that says all people who "dodged the draft" using your term were liberal. In fact Bush and Cheney both avoided the war while plenty of "liberals" served with distinction.

tonkovich · #28 11-11-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

Great example of how liberal he was. Only a liberal person would refuse to answer the call of the country he loves. It's a perfect case of wanting something for nothing. He wants the freedom, but wants someone else to pay for it.

uh, still waiting for your answer to how vietnam was a threat to the united states? surely you can help out an ignoramus like me with a helpful, informative answer?

Air&Road · #29 11-12-2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

He was a conscienceous objector I believe. Said he was a Muslim minister.

The price he paid was significant....gave up the best years of his career.

I suspect if he had gone to the army he could have boxed and continued as he served. He did not go because he did not believe in the war. He also may have believed it was unfair as the number of blacks serving in nam was disproportionate to the general population.

But according to you a person is obligated to serve no matter what hare brained war our fearless leaders lead us into or he is scum.

I have never seen a statistic that says all people who "dodged the draft" using your term were liberal. In fact Bush and Cheney both avoided the war while plenty of "liberals" served with distinction.

Tom,

I'm quite surprised at your responses here. The CO part is not so surprising, because most people that did not serve don't understand the true options available to the CO. The "Draft Dodger" comments from you, however, are quite surprising, UNLESS you are a significantly younger age than I think you are.

Let's cover the CO issue first:

There have been many SINCERE consciencious objectors who have served HEROICALLY in the military. Unlike Clay who elected to use CO as an excuse to stay out of the military, SINCERE CO's that were subject to the draft served as Medics, or as more commonly called during WWII, First Aid's.

I had a neighbor who died about 10 years ago who was in this category. He was one of the most wonderful human beings I ever knew. He answered the draft in 1942 as a CO. He went through basic and then trained as a "First Aid" as he called it. He served in Italy and Germany and saw LOTS of combat, all of it COMPLETELY unarmed. I did not know until after his death that he had some serious injuries and had saved many lives as well as receiving some serious honorable citations. Two of the people whose lives he saved came from halfway across the country for his funeral. Too bad, your man Clay did not have this kind of character, guts and commitment. If he had, maybe there would be someone walking around today owing their life to him.

Stop and think about this Tom! Did it take more or less guts for my friend (his name was RL Owens) to do what he did or instead, carry a gun to have some chance of defending himself. He was a CO, but served heroically with an admired service record. There were many in the Vietnam era that did the same thing. This would not happen today because there is no longer a draft.

As I said, since you have not served in the military it is easy to understand why you are not aware of this.

The next subject is "draft dodging":

Given that I think you are very close to my age I am really surprised that you don't understand the issues here. If you are two or maybe even one year younger than myself then it's easier to understand why you don't understand the parameters involved. This is because the draft went to a lottery right after I was in the Army and a few years after that went away altogether so you would not have had to be aware of these issues.

Okay, here are the things that could fulfill the military obligation in the Viet Nam era AND what could allow you to miss being called for the draft:

Actual Military service fulfillment:
o Active duty service to a completion of a discharge from one of the branches of service. If drafted into the Army, this meant two years. If joining for a specific MOS (job specialty) it could be from 3 to 6 years depending on the specialty.
o Inactive duty service with the Reserve or National Guard to the level of a discharge.

Ways to be deferred from the draft, decided and approved by the LOCAL draft board. Since the draft boards were local, the success of such deferment claims varied widely across the country:
o Married with a child.
o Education deferment. A full time student could typically and easily gain deferment. Someone attending college would typically make it past the prime draft age of 19, then the likelihood of being called at later age was very slim. This played into the hands of the upper crust and politicians in society. They could much more easily get their kids through college and gave them a way to keep their kids out of the military. This is not to say that ALL college kids were bought out of the draft by Daddy, but it provided an avenue for the Daddy's that wanted to do this.
o Defense related jobs, like in the Departments of Defense, Army, Navy, etc. as well as some critical defense plant jobs

Okay all that said, let's talk about your allegations of Bush and Cheney being "draft dodgers." Bush, served in the National Guard until discharged so obviously fulfilled his obligation.

I don't know much about Cheney except for all the stuff on the local news about him when he parted ways with Halliburton. I think it is very safe to assume though, that he went to college straight out of high school and gained an education deferment past the prime draft age as MANY people legitimately did in that era. I was always quite envious of these folks, and not in a bad way. A number of my friends went straight to college, graduated, got out and got a good start on a professional career before I could get out and get started in college.

Tom, I expect that IF you are very close to the same age as myself that your ability both intellectually and financially to go to college straight out of high school prevented you from being drafted. If that happened for you, I'm happy for you, but it would seem kind of unfair to call Cheney a draft dodger and then give yourself a pass.

It's obvious you don't like either Bush or Cheney and quite honestly niether of them are among my favorite people, but there is no way they can be called "draft dodgers."

Trying to make someone look like a low life because they answered their nations call is quite a "small" thing to do. The american soldier does not decide who or where to fight. We followed orders. The decision regarding what was a just or unjust war will have to be answered for at the Pearly Gates by people like LBJ, Richard Nixon, the Bushes and now even BO.

Air&Road · #30 11-12-2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

uh, still waiting for your answer to how vietnam was a threat to the united states? surely you can help out an ignoramus like me with a helpful, informative answer?

Please show me where I have ever said that the Vietnamese were a threat to the US. Myself and millions of other Americans have answered our countries call. There's an old soldiers saying: "mine is not to ask why, mine is to do or die."

It is QUITE obvious that YOU have never answered your countries call or you would easily understand that soldiers don't decide who or where to fight. We just follow orders. Something that it would serve many civilians to learn about.

It's amazingly easy for some pogue to say something like "well I wouldn't have answered the draft!" Yeah right! How can you know how you would react until you are faced with the circumstances and choices. You could have gone to Canada, gone to Jail or gone to the Army. Yeah, yeah, I know, you would have gone to Canada. In Clay's case he was a high enough profile to stay out of jail and was Chicken ***** enough to continue to enjoy the freedoms that he refused to answer the call that millions of honorable Americans answered.