Mr. Paul..... - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmbdiesel · #91 01-16-2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I respect your view..however, I am not sure how your comment contributes anything to this thread-aside from you not wanting people to discuss religion

Pot calling kettle black???

Talk about your religion until you're blue in the face for all I care.

I still believe it's time to end our blind and unquestioning support of Israel. (that in response to the OP)

elchivito · #92 01-16-2012, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

But that doesn't mean that the Church teaches that salvation is not possible to someone of another faith. The faithful Muslim that tries in earnest to practice his faith is certainly able to obtain salvation. But that salvation is still through Christ, he simply doesn't know it. That's it in a nutshell

At the risk of being "nasty", that's one of the goofiest rationalizations I've heard in a very long time.
Jesus is the only way to salvation
Jesus IS the church, specifically, the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, the only way to salvation is through the church
Unless of course you belong to another faith and really really believe in, say... Lloyd Bridges. The Lloyd Our God. And you really really try really hard to believe in Lloyd Bridges and practice his way. Then, unbeknownst to you, Jesus will save you anyhow.
No point in being a Catholic at all, apparently.

chilcutt · #93 01-16-2012, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Pot calling kettle black???

Talk about your religion until you're blue in the face for all I care.

I still believe it's time to end our blind and unquestioning support of Israel. (that in response to the OP)

Perhaps I mis-understood you.
Words on a screen have no toneality from which to thoroughly understand what the other person is trying to get across.
Beings as this seems to be the case, then surely you will grant me a pass.

Yes..I totally agree with you in regards to Isreal.

sfloriII · #94 01-17-2012, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

Well sfloriII, don't hold your breath waiting for me. You say you are a Christian. Read your Scripture on your time. It is full, from front to back, in the New Testament that what you say is incorrect. If you don't believe, you are not reading it. Just take a good hard look at 1 Corinthians - Chapter 15, the first 4 verses. Now if a Muslim or a Hindu believe this they are not Muslim or Hindu, then they would be Christian

Well, I am familiar with those passages. And they reitterate my point. We are saved through Christ. We believe in one God. And the fullness of truth resides in the Catholic Church. That was stated in the Vatican II Council.
I imagine you're correct in the aasertion that if a Muslim (or anyone) read the bible and believed it that he would be a Christian. But that's obvious. What's your point?

sfloriII · #95 01-17-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

At the risk of being "nasty", that's one of the goofiest rationalizations I've heard in a very long time.
Jesus is the only way to salvation
Jesus IS the church, specifically, the Roman Catholic Church
Therefore, the only way to salvation is through the church
Unless of course you belong to another faith and really really believe in, say... Lloyd Bridges. The Lloyd Our God. And you really really try really hard to believe in Lloyd Bridges and practice his way. Then, unbeknownst to you, Jesus will save you anyhow.
No point in being a Catholic at all, apparently.

What I was trying to say is that God knows fully well who is good and who is not. There are plenty of places on earth where people haven't been exposed to Christianity. What happens to the just people there? What I'm saying is that God knows they have tried in earnest to the best of their ability to lead a good life. So you'd say they are not deserving of salvation?
Who's being non-sensical now?

elchivito · #96 01-17-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

So you'd say they are not deserving of salvation?
Who's being non-sensical now?

Not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out that if all it takes to be saved by this all-too-human-for-my-taste god is to be a good person, then there is no need to adhere to any sort of dogma. It's all unnecessary.

junqueyardjim · #97 01-17-2012, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out that if all it takes to be saved by this all-too-human-for-my-taste god is to be a good person, then there is no need to adhere to any sort of dogma. It's all unnecessary.

I am saying that Elchivito has it figured out much better then you, my friend sfloriII. The OT, Old Testatement was all of law and works. In the NT it is all of Grace. You only need to believe. A short Creed to be sure, "Faith plus Nothing". St. Paul says our sins (the law) were nailed to the cross. Scripture also says that the Lord has taken all our unrighteous and totally disposed of it forever! It's gone! Live free, Live in Christ. Forget your Vatican II. It should probably be vacation II It is all the thinking of men just like you. Read the Book, stuff your catechism and live and grow on that Scripture I listed and much, much more. Why don't you join me on an in depth study in the Book of Acts. Twenty five minutes a day, 5 days a week. Chuck Missler - 66/40 Christian Radio Sermons, Ministry Broadcast, Podcasts Best Bible teacher ever, but is voice is getting weak.

sfloriII · #98 01-17-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junqueyardjim

I am saying that Elchivito has it figured out much better then you, my friend sfloriII. The OT, Old Testatement was all of law and works. In the NT it is all of Grace. You only need to believe. A short Creed to be sure, "Faith plus Nothing". St. Paul says our sins (the law) were nailed to the cross. Scripture also says that the Lord has taken all our unrighteous and totally disposed of it forever! It's gone! Live free, Live in Christ. Forget your Vatican II. It should probably be vacation II It is all the thinking of men just like you. Read the Book, stuff your catechism and live and grow on that Scripture I listed and much, much more. Why don't you join me on an in depth study in the Book of Acts. Twenty five minutes a day, 5 days a week. Chuck Missler - 66/40 Christian Radio Sermons, Ministry Broadcast, Podcasts Best Bible teacher ever, but is voice is getting weak.

I respect your opinion, but beg to differ. But it's a common difference between Catholics and Protestants on this point.

A couple things to consider:
1. the word "alone" in "faith alone" was added by Martin Luther to the original text-- I imagine to comply with his own beliefs.
2. Every damned soul in hell has faith. Look where they are.

Here are some scriptural quotes that illustrate what I'm saying:

Matthew 7:21 - It is not anyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Matthew 19:16-17 - to have life, keep the commandments
John 14:21 - he who keeps the commandments loves me
Romans 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
James 2:14-26 - a man is justified by works and not faith alone

But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

Peace.

sfloriII · #99 01-17-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out that if all it takes to be saved by this all-too-human-for-my-taste god is to be a good person, then there is no need to adhere to any sort of dogma. It's all unnecessary.

In one sense, yes. But look at it this way: would you rather drive to your destination in an AMC Pacer or in a Mercedes S-600 sedan? Both may get you where you want to go, but one more completely represents the "fullness of truth" in the way to do it!

Just one way of looking at it... since we all love our cars.

davidmash · #**100** 01-17-2012, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

That's essentially correct. The Church believes that Christ and the Church are one in the same. Therefore, since salvation is through Christ and Christ is the Church, then salvation is through the Church.

But that doesn't mean that the Church teaches that salvation is not possible to someone of another faith. The faithful Muslim that tries in earnest to practice his faith is certainly able to obtain salvation. But that salvation is still through Christ, he simply doesn't know it. That's it in a nutshell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

Never said that. I actually said the opposite.

What you said is that if you do not believe in Christ you do not get salvation. That is equivalent to saying "don't believe in my religion and your screwed as in no salvation.

elchivito · #**101** 01-17-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

In one sense, yes. But look at it this way: would you rather drive to your destination in an AMC Pacer or in a Mercedes S-600 sedan? Both may get you where you want to go, but one more completely represents the "fullness of truth" in the way to do it!

Just one way of looking at it... since we all love our cars.

However I get there, and I am not at all convinced where "there" is, I'd just as soon do it with as little baggage as possible

cmbdiesel · #**102** 01-17-2012, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfloriII

In one sense, yes. But look at it this way: would you rather drive to your destination in an AMC Pacer or in a Mercedes S-600 sedan? Both may get you where you want to go, but one more completely represents the "fullness of truth" in the way to do it!

Just one way of looking at it... since we all love our cars.

Practical question. Isn't adhering to centuries old dogma more like being in the Pacer??