Public Education

[Botnst]

I'l bet you already know what I'm going to write, don't you? I'll bet you are wrong.

I favor public education. In contrast to my general laissez faire/libertarian views, I think public education is an inherent organ of government. It should be strictly secular and it should be free to all students and paid for strictly by taxes only. Funding should be per student. All teachers paid the same base with incentives for certain academic areas and incentives for entering poorly performing school.s It is such an important function that everybody should pay for public education, whether or not they send their kids to public school.

I have more, but that ought wind your clock.

[Yak]

I'll agree, as I think an educated populace is public good. However, the education system needs to come to realize that a college education is not the be-all/end-all.

I'd recommend something more like the German model or the (older) UK model. At some point in your adolescence you're tracked to go to college and advanced studies, or you finish and learn a trade via apprenticeships or other training. Until that point, a solid foundation in arithmetic, history, basic sciences, language skills, etc should be built.

Dragging an uninterested 16-17 y.o. to high school graduation and then dumping the marginally educated but also unskilled individual onto the public doesn't work. It also dilutes the quality of prep for the college-bound during the final few years of high school.

Some will say this is elitist and doesn't account for late bloomers, and they might be right. It would also decrease the quality of NCAA athletics, so it'll never fly.

[Botnst]

I agree with you and Rick Santorum on that.

[elchivito]

I've long believed that our "everybody should go to college" focus is wrong and to the detriment of those who don't want to attend or are not academically equipped to do so. It's my understanding that in countries where students are "tracked" in such a way as to sort and select the academically advanced, it doesn't necessarily mean that a student who has been directed towards a career prep type education can not go to college instead if he so chooses.

[engatwork]

and then dumping the marginally educated but also unskilled individual onto the public doesn't work

Unless you work for Corrections Corporation of America.

[Yak]

Some in the liberal media agree:

So, Santorum’s claim that Obama wants everyone to go to college to become Marxist deconstructionists was wrong. In fact, it was so wrong that it didn't even survive Fox News, where, presented with evidence that Obama, like him, favored all kinds of educational opportunities, including but not limited to college, Santorum replied, sheepishly, "Maybe I was reading some things" that gave him the wrong impression, and "if it was an error, then I agree with the president."

But wait. Stick to your guns, Rick! The thing is, you exposed a poetic truth: While Obama might not push college education exclusively, like most Democrats he does oversell it, and does shortchange the alternatives. And millions of young Americans pay the price.

Read more: Obama and the Cult of College: Why Rick Santorum Had a Point | Rick Perlstein | Politics News | Rolling Stone

[Yak]

Originally Posted by elchivito

I've long believed that our "everybody should go to college" focus is wrong and to the detriment of those who don't want to attend or are not academically equipped to do so. It's my understanding that in countries where students are "tracked" in such a way as to sort and select the academically advanced, it doesn't necessarily mean that a student who has been directed towards a career prep type education can not go to college instead if he so chooses.

Having been in the system in Scotland in the 70's, then having seen it in Germany in the 90's, it's pretty much a done deal - if you're tracked into non-college, it's really difficult to get untracked. It would take a very strong parent to fight the system.

Some of the differences may be the continuing education opportunities later, stuff like community colleges. People in their 30's and 40's took classes that interested them at low cost. It wasn't just something you did to get better job skills. You weren't "done" at 16 unless you really chose to be done.

[kerry]

Originally Posted by Botnst

I'l bet you already know what I'm going to write, don't you? I'll bet you are wrong.

I favor public education. In contrast to my general laissez faire/libertarian views, I think public education is an inherent organ of government. It should be strictly secular and it should be free to all students and paid for strictly by taxes only. Funding should be per student. All teachers paid the same base with incentives for certain academic areas and incentives for entering poorly performing school.s It is such an important function that everybody should pay for public education, whether or not they send their kids to public school.

I have more, but that ought wind your clock.

No surprise there. Exactly what Adam Smith thought (more or less).

[Botnst]

Higher ed is where I go back to laissez faire. I think there should be completely open admission in all publicly funded higher ed: If you have the financing and want to give it a shot, give it what ya got. Darwin's boney hands sift the chaff from the wheat.

I hate public funding for private education -- at any level. It dissipates public dollars on what should be private enterprise. If your ivy league can't survive without public funds, then you are a publicly funded institution and some pol gets to tell you what to do.

[pj67coll]

I agree. A well educated citizenry is a countries most valuable asset. I think the German model is best and there is no reason why someone here wouldn't be able to change track later on and move thru a community college and further up if they so desired.

Unfortunately the German alternative might not work here. In Germany technical and vocational training works because German companies are world leaders in manufacturing and appear to take a long term view which keeps manufacturing in country and provides employment thru apprenticeships for technical students rather than academics. US companies have been shipping those jobs to China for the last decade or two because short term profits outweigh long term societal cohesion. So if there were a large number of US technically trained kids looking for jobs in America, would they find them?

- Peter.

[Botnst]

Ans: Japan or Korea.

[jplinville]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Higher ed is where I go back to laissez faire. I think there should be completely open admission in all publicly funded higher ed: If you have the financing and want to give it a shot, give it what ya got. Darwin's boney hands sift the chaff from the wheat.

I hate public funding for private education -- at any level. It dissipates public dollars on what should be private enterprise. If your ivy league can't survive without public funds, then you are a publicly funded institution and some pol gets to tell you what to do.

Since more and more public money is used to pay for higher education, the cost of that education has increased as well. Perhaps by keeping the public money out of it, it might bring the cost back down to something a bit more manageable.

In speaking with the school board in our district, I've learned that they are no longer pushing college, but steering much of the student body (those that aren't academically adept) into trade schools instead.

[tbomachines]

Originally Posted by Botnst

Higher ed is where I go back to laissez faire. I think there should be completely open admission in all publicly funded higher ed: If you have the financing and want to give it a shot, give it what ya got. Darwin's boney hands sift the chaff from the wheat.

I hate public funding for private education -- at any level. It dissipates public dollars on what should be private enterprise. If your ivy league can't survive without public funds, then you are a publicly funded institution and some pol gets to tell you what to do.

I totally agree with this, although for the most part I am admitting hypocrisy on this point since I've gotten through my education only with the help of federal loans and scholarships. I would not have been able to afford to go to such a good school, likewise I'm not sure it was totally worth $200k. The price of education is atrocious these days, I am in favor of anything increasing the competition and decreasing the cost (i.e. less stupid kids go to school).

[kerry]

I've noticed a somewhat disturbing trend in US CC's. There is now a predominance of females in CC administration. Traditional male trades at CC's are diminishing as a result. We had excellent automotive, diesel and hydraulic/pneumatic programs at one time. We had the biggest natural gas conversion program in the State. They were all discontinued under female leadership. Relatively small sample but perhaps significant.

[tbomachines]

Originally Posted by kerry

I've noticed a somewhat disturbing trend in US CC's. There is now a predominance of females in CC administration. Traditional male trades at CC's are diminishing as a result. We had excellent automotive, diesel and hydraulic/pneumatic programs at one time. We had the biggest natural gas conversion program in the State. They were all discontinued under female leadership. Relatively small sample but perhaps significant.

Good news for me in terms of jobs...I'll be teaching at some point, probably either as an associate or CC prof. A.K.A. slave.