Public Education - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

SwampYankee · #1 04-24-2012, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I'm in favor of open entry universities but as the US system stands right now, it has very substantial problems. Open entry colleges spend huge amounts of money teaching 6th grade level math, english and reading. Those classes are funded with public money. It is a huge waste of resources. The statistics on students who enter college at that level are very dismal. Only a very small percentage end up graduating from college or earning a college certificate of some kind. A very high percentage of those students were unmotivated in high school and remain unmotivated in college. Those kinds of students shouldn't suck the resources away from highly motivated students. There should be some means of dividing the motivated from the unmotivated. perhaps a rule that if in high school your ACT or SAT scores are not college level, you can't go to college until you're 26 yrs old or prove yourself by passing college level tests in reading, writing and math.

As an example, I teach at relatively small school. This spring we have 14 sections of 5th and 6th grade math, 18 sections of middle school math, and 33 sections of high school math. That's 65 classes with 25 students each non of which counts as college credit That's the equivalent of 31 full time teachers educating below the college level. That compares with 50 sections of Math being taught at the college level. So, more than half of our effort in Math is aimed at less than college level. English numbers are probably a little less.

My FIL teaches math at both the high school and state university level. His experience has been the same.

OTOH, my 14yo son in middle school is currently taking a high level class with a teacher who appears to put little more than minimum effort into teaching the subject matter. My son is often confused after class. Extra help sessions have proven pointless where questions are often met with a "We went over that already in class, you should have paid more attention or taken better notes." Questions in class are met with a similar response.

We started going to my FIL's for dinner twice a week for dinner & math, within 5 minutes he's up to speed and then they'll spend the next 1/2 hr. going over the next chapter. He picks it up very quickly, when he's actually taught how to do it. My son has always loved math, now he dreads it. He has always done very well for teachers who had high expectations for him and were considered "tough" teachers, so that's not the issue. But it does go to show the negative ramifications a teacher can have on young minds.

Just as an aside, meetings with the administration have proven as effective as the teacher's extra help sessions. It always turns into a discussion of how disorganized my son is, the homework that was wrinkled up in the bottom of his backpack, he's too quiet and doesn't ask questions in class, etc. He was diagnosed with ADHD back in 2 or 3 grade, we're well aware of what his shortcomings are and what we need to do to help him succeed. We've also seen what he can do when he is actually taught.

retmil46 · #2 04-24-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

My FIL teaches math at both the high school and state university level. His experience has been the same.

OTOH, my 14yo son in middle school is currently taking a high level class with a teacher who appears to put little more than minimum effort into teaching the subject matter. My son is often confused after class. Extra help sessions have proven pointless where questions are often met with a "We went over that already in class, you should have paid more attention or taken better notes." Questions in class are met with a similar response.

We started going to my FIL's for dinner twice a week for dinner & math, within 5 minutes he's up to speed and then they'll spend the next 1/2 hr. going over the next chapter. He picks it up very quickly, when he's actually taught how to do it. My son has always loved math, now he dreads it. He has always done very well for teachers who had high expectations for him and were considered "tough" teachers, so that's not the issue. But it does go to show the negative ramifications a teacher can have on young minds.

Just as an aside, meetings with the administration have proven as effective as the teacher's extra help sessions. It always turns into a discussion of how disorganized my son is, the homework that was wrinkled up in the bottom of his backpack, he's too quiet and doesn't ask questions in class, etc. He was diagnosed with ADHD back in 2 or 3 grade, we're well aware of what his shortcomings are and what we need to do to help him succeed. We've also seen what he can do when he is actually taught.

Sounds as if a lot of people at your son's school just want to fill a POSITION and get a paycheck, instead of actually doing their JOB of teaching.

SwampYankee · #3 04-24-2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Sounds as if a lot of people at your son's school just want to fill a POSITION and get a paycheck, instead of actually doing their JOB of teaching.

I will say that it has been the exception, our experience otherwise and with my daughter so far has been great. But if you consider how many parents either don't pay attention (for whatever reason, some of which may be valid) or don't care, it would be very easy for a kid to just fall through the cracks and to be written off when there may be more to it.

elchivito · #4 04-24-2012, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I will say that it has been the exception, our experience otherwise and with my daughter so far has been great. But if you consider how many parents either don't pay attention (for whatever reason, some of which may be valid) or don't care, it would be very easy for a kid to just fall through the cracks and to be written off when there may be more to it.

While every teacher should be a master teacher, many aren't. They are, after all, human. Parents who blithely put their kids into school, cross their fingers and close their eyes and hope for the best ultimately bear the responsibility when things go wrong. By the same token, parents who remain proactive about their kids' learning are due the credit for their kids' successes. I don't think there's any valid reason for not paying attention. In 3 decades, I can count on one hand the kids I know who did well in spite of having absentee parents and I can say with no uncertainty that there is a direct relationship between student success and parents' active involvement with school.

I guess we're lucky here in my county. Our local CC is very active and interested in the manual arts. They offer various mechanical certifications including hi-tech stuff, nursing and other career path majors. They have a nationally recognized gunsmithing certification program that I'd love to take, but don't have time. Because of our nearby growing wine industry they have invested millions in planting a vineyard and have started a viticulture certification with majors in not only oenology and winemaking but marketing as well. I've taught various evening courses and seminars for them over the years.

kerry · #5 04-24-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

My FIL teaches math at both the high school and state university level. His experience has been the same.

OTOH, my 14yo son in middle school is currently taking a high level class with a teacher who appears to put little more than minimum effort into teaching the subject matter. My son is often confused after class. Extra help sessions have proven pointless where questions are often met with a "We went over that already in class, you should have paid more attention or taken better notes." Questions in class are met with a similar response.

We started going to my FIL's for dinner twice a week for dinner & math, within 5 minutes he's up to speed and then they'll spend the next 1/2 hr. going over the next chapter. He picks it up very quickly, when he's actually taught how to do it. My son has always loved math, now he dreads it. He has always done very well for teachers who had high expectations for him and were considered "tough" teachers, so that's not the issue. But it does go to show the negative ramifications a teacher can have on young minds.

Just as an aside, meetings with the administration have proven as effective as the teacher's extra help sessions. It always turns into a discussion of how disorganized my son is, the homework that was wrinkled up in the bottom of his backpack, he's too quiet and doesn't ask questions in class, etc. He was diagnosed with ADHD back in 2 or 3 grade, we're well aware of what his shortcomings are and what we need to do to help him succeed. We've also seen what he can do when he is actually taught.

Had somewhat similar problems with Math teachers at my daughter's school, although there are probably good Math teachers there. The solution we found was for our daughter to take a remedial math class at my CC in addition to her high school classes. She did it online and a friend of mine who is a math teacher tutored her. (Math 090) After taking that class, she tested high enough to avoid the next remedial level (MAT 099 or high school algebra II) and moved on to college level classes. She's graduating from high school having done very well in online College Algebra and College Trigonometry.

The one KEY difference between high school math teachers and community college math teachers (at least around here) is that the CC does not hire teachers without requiring teaching demonstrations that prove teaching ability. High schools dont require their teachers to prove their abilities to a hiring committee.

layback40 · #6 04-24-2012, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

My FIL teaches math at both the high school and state university level. His experience has been the same.

OTOH, my 14yo son in middle school is currently taking a high level class with a teacher who appears to put little more than minimum effort into teaching the subject matter. My son is often confused after class. Extra help sessions have proven pointless where questions are often met with a "We went over that already in class, you should have paid more attention or taken better notes." Questions in class are met with a similar response.

We started going to my FIL's for dinner twice a week for dinner & math, within 5 minutes he's up to speed and then they'll spend the next 1/2 hr. going over the next chapter. He picks it up very quickly, when he's actually taught how to do it. My son has always loved math, now he dreads it. He has always done very well for teachers who had high expectations for him and were considered "tough" teachers, so that's not the issue. But it does go to show the negative ramifications a teacher can have on young minds.

Just as an aside, meetings with the administration have proven as effective as the teacher's extra help sessions. It always turns into a discussion of how disorganized my son is, the homework that was wrinkled up in the bottom of his backpack, he's too quiet and doesn't ask questions in class, etc. He was diagnosed with ADHD back in 2 or 3 grade, we're well aware of what his shortcomings are and what we need to do to help him succeed. We've also seen what he can do when he is actually taught.

Hey Swamp,
You may want to have a look at Maths Online - Maths Tuition For All Australian K-12 Students
Just use the try it tab.
You should be able to find all the topics your son is doing.
Maths in Australia is very similar to on your side of the pond.
Good Luck

Ara T. · #7 04-24-2012, 08:52 PM

After trying an online math class at the community college I never went back. I can go at my own pace and watch the program do the examples over and over again. Math teachers after pre algebra were largely useless for me.

SwampYankee · #8 04-25-2012, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

Hey Swamp,
You may want to have a look at Maths Online - Maths Tuition For All Australian K-12 Students
Just use the try it tab.
You should be able to find all the topics your son is doing.
Maths in Australia is very similar to on your side of the pond.
Good Luck

Thanks, definitely worth a look! Unfortunately I'm not much help to him.

Area, volume and price/acre or lb. are about as mathematic as I need to get.

TylerH860 · #9 04-26-2012, 04:46 PM

I've posted before about my college experience. An absolute waste. It was a parental mandate, and I remember my high school principal bragging at the graduation ceremony that 98% percent of my class was going to college. I was shocked. So many can't put together a coherent sentence, and they're going to college?

I scored really well on the ACT. My parent's income made any kind of financial aid impossible. I went to class and coasted through. I had no idea what I wanted to do, thus no motivation. The majority had such terrible reading comprehension, writing skills, etc. It forced the everything to be dumbed down. I completely lost interest, quit the business school because I was so bored and couldn't get a math teacher that spoke English as a first language, and switched to a silly LAS degree.

Most of my classes were taught by graduate students, or with heavy involvement of a TA. There was a huge disparity in pay between long time professors with very bloated salaries versus the new and less experienced getting paid less than minimum wage to compensate. Of course there were some bright spots, but I saw the system as a whole completely flawed. So many fluff classes I had no interest in learning or re-learning. Almost all of my general classes I had learned once or twice over in middle and high school. Why the hell was I paying to learn it again with a bunch of morons?

Public schools should be providing a good general education for students, not college.

SwampYankee · #10 05-01-2012, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerH860

I've posted before about my college experience. An absolute waste. It was a parental mandate, and I remember my high school principal bragging at the graduation ceremony that 98% percent of my class was going to college. I was shocked. So many can't put together a coherent sentence, and they're going to college?

I scored really well on the ACT. My parent's income made any kind of financial aid impossible. I went to class and coasted through. I had no idea what I wanted to do, thus no motivation. The majority had such terrible reading comprehension, writing skills, etc. It forced the everything to be dumbed down. I completely lost interest, quit the business school because I was so bored and couldn't get a math teacher that spoke English as a first language, and switched to a silly LAS degree.

Most of my classes were taught by graduate students, or with heavy involvement of a TA. There was a huge disparity in pay between long time professors with very bloated salaries versus the new and less experienced getting paid less than minimum wage to compensate. Of course there were some bright spots, but I saw the system as a whole completely flawed. So many fluff classes I had no interest in learning or re-learning. Almost all of my general classes I had learned once or twice over in middle and high school. Why the hell was I paying to learn it again with a bunch of morons?

Public schools should be providing a good general education for students, not college.

That's how my brother ended up with Philosophy degree despite not being the philosophical type. After taking 3.5 years of B.S. (Read Bull $hit, not Bachelor of Science

), taught by similarly unqualified or incoherent TA's and grads, he sat down with an advisor and asked him what was his quickest route to graduation. Philosophy it was!

Me? I stuck with the same B.S. (see above), with a couple John 'Bluto' Blutarsky semesters thrown in, and trudged through it. It was an enjoyable 6 years.

MS Fowler · #11 04-24-2012, 10:12 AM

Isn't this where the philosophy of " all children are equal" runs into the real world?
In the academic realm, as in most others, there are people with an aptitude, and people who lack that aptitude. Fitting the round peg into the square hole is costly.....and stupid.
We need to elevate, in the public mind, the value of trades-people. The colleges have done a good job of making it seem that everyone should go to college. Its time to reverse that thought, but maintain the dignity of all.

Botnst · #12 04-24-2012, 01:21 PM

The problem is the funding mechanism -- there is no financial negative feedback for a student who is subsidized by the state. Chances are that if a student had a stake in tuition cost then he would be more likely to either choose not to go or if her goes, take it serious.

pj67coll · #13 04-24-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

The problem is the funding mechanism -- there is no financial negative feedback for a student who is subsidized by the state. Chances are that if a student had a stake in tuition cost then he would be more likely to either choose not to go or if her goes, take it serious.

At what age? Kids in elementary school have no concept of a stake in anything.

- Peter.

Botnst · #14 04-24-2012, 01:26 PM

Kids don't need it: They want to please authority figures. Money doesn't come into play (mostly) until much later.

pj67coll · #15 04-24-2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Kids don't need it: They want to please authority figures. Money doesn't come into play (mostly) until much later.

Really. Sounds like you've not hung around elementary schools of late.

- Peter.