Normal heterosexual men and women who are incarcerated may turn to each other for that which is deprived as a characteristic of incarceration. This includes sexual gratification and tenderness.

Also, men and women may change their sexual preference as they get older or as a consequence of moving into a different social circle.

In both cases the facts seem to indicate that sexual preference has a strong environmental component.

Have you any proof that sexual preference is "inherent and immutable"?

I can offer some personal observation: I know several men and women in my age group who believe they have always been homosexual. I also know a bunch of men and women who believe they have always been heterosexual. And I know a smaller number who shift back and forth.

I think the expression of sexual preference is far more complex than science or society can explain at this time.

How about we rely upon the common convention known as the dicionary, you know that researched, validated and published volume of work that purportedly evidences a broad agreement as the the possible meanings of particular words as understood and accepted by a plurality of any particular language's speakers and readers!

I'm going to go with the second definition Alex! "well grounded or justifiable: being at once relevant and meaningful" as being clearly the intended and most accurate application of the word in this context, specifically employed to in fact to avoid a more inherently judgemental term such as "good" or "acceptable".

Valid, adj.
: having legal efficacy or force; especially : executed with the proper legal authority and formalities valid contract>
2
a : well-grounded or justifiable : being at once relevant and meaningful valid theory> b : logically correct valid argument> <valid inference>

3
: appropriate to the end in view : effective valid methods>

4
of a taxon : conforming to accepted principles of sound biological classification

— va·lid·i·ty \və-ˈli-də-tē, va-\ noun
— val·id·ly \ˈva-ləd-lē\ adverb

Rather than your tortured attempt to synonymise it with "acceptable or good" to accomodate your own preconceptions.

I completely agree with your theory. I'd adopted the position that sexual preference is "inherent and immutable" because I think that more accurately portrays the broadly held and promoted cultural meme best described as "born this way", as in "my sexual preferences are beyond my control and I am not responsible for feeling the way I do,and any disagreement is intolerance!" a vocal if not widely held attitude by a particular group of forum participants.

It is excedingly difficult to devine the ratio of predisposed attitude and learned adaptation, but I feel it is absurd to conclude that both are not impactful.

I have heard it opined that there is wide spread evidence that gender separate devlopment of human sexual preferencs toward homosexuality was one result of Victorian morality. Horny adolecents relegated to predominately same sex opportunities will conform and adapt resulting in a larger than statisically normal variation towards homosexual behavior. It has been theorised that such conditioning contributed to the British Officer Corp's disperate predisposition towards Arabs and against Israel, due to the British military education system's culture of acceptabilty of homosexual behavior and how that is more closely congruent with Arab/Islamic tolerance of male homosexual relationships, ala` Lawrence of Arabia!

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, but I've come to appreciate the sublime satisfaction that is achieved from hitting the mark!

Peppered moths we are.

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neither. criminal. (though probably abused as a child sexually, or emotionally, or physically.)

pedophilia is about power. so is rape. and incest.

homosexuality is something else. and involves two adults.

p.s. sandusky was married. to a woman.

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Declarative statements based on personal experience?

PS every human interaction is about power in some way or another!

I am heterosexual. Therefore, I am born wanting sex with females. That hottie down the street won't give willingly. Can I simply take since it is my natural born impulse?

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yes, but human interactions between adults are different than human interactions between an adult and a child.

p.s. why are you so interested in my personal experience?

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Can't differentiate between inclination and action"? Anybody can want anything as much as they'd like, but they can not have anything or everything they want.

The article is clear there is no evidence that Brinkin acted to violate the rights of any other except in the most tangental of reasoning that consumers of kiddie porn by the demand that they create are somehow complicit in the abuse of children. Don't think anybody in the discussion has suggested that he did, or should be able to.

Then there is no argument. He can want kiddie porn all he does but he cannot have anything or everything he wants. Kiddie porn happens to be one of them.

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Of course you can any time the opportunity presents itself- no one is walking side by side with you to stop you. What happens after or during this attempt of "taking" is another matter and for a another discussion/thread.

Then don't come to that conclusion. Personally, I find the suggestion that there is some ratio of 'predisposition' : 'learned adaptation' to be pulled from the ether absurd, and I am curious as to why you insist upon a theory of sexuality that "values" (second definition again) "learned adaptation." Would you entertain the argument that there is no "predisposed attitude" toward either heterosexuality or homosexuality (or pedophilia, etc., etc.), but that a person's "sexuality" is determined solely by the social construct in which they exist, and that the "validity" of their sexual identity is determined by the sexual paradigm of that society, which deems certain behaviors "acceptable" and others "deviant" for the sole purpose of maintianing that society's power structure?

But isn't "your sexuality is a choice" also a cultural meme, as in "homosexuals should choose to not be homosexuals because a homosexual cannot reporduce, and sexual gratification for purposes other than reproduction is sinful, and any disagreement will subject you to eternal damnation!"? And to whom do you think one should be "responsible for feeling" that they were "born gay?" Again, I'm curious of your reaction to the argument that one's sexual preferences are beyond one's control, not because a person is "born that way (or the other)," but because sexual behavior (gay, straight, pediophile, etc.) is one way that our society has traditionally classified individuals and thereby reinforced what is "good" and what is "bad" for the purpose of protecting the dominance of a particular social paradigm or set of beliefs.

I would ask for whom did those laws help create a "strong" society. And what do you mean by "strong?"

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Christopher
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Laws are (or should be) based on morality and morals are (or should be) utilitarian. [That should get the peasants lighting fires and grabbing pitchforks!]

Take for instance, our current laws concerning men having sex with young teenaged boys. In our culture we view this as horribly immoral but through history and up to the present day pederasty has been tolerated by various cultures and even extolled by some highly regarded philosophers. Laws against that behavior work in our society because we believe it interferes with the emotional development of youngsters and thus, find the relationship immoral. Those same laws would not work in a country that did not find pederasty and impediment to full adulthood and thus, not immoral.

Safe birth control has (in my opinion) completely undermined the utilitarian reason behind the increasingly antiquated moral codes prohibiting sexual relations between unmarried adults (in any sexual combination and in any number). The utilitarian reason behind the moral code was for the protection and nurturing of offspring and the proper support of the mothers. Before birth control, sex outside of marriage had a high probability of reproduction. Thus, there was a good reason for society insist that the prospective parents be considerate of possible outcomes. I think the prohibition in our culture concerning homosexuality is an outcome of our previous inability to offer sex as a recreation activity with no procreation. Thus, pleasure in sex was inseparable from procreation. Since homosexuals don't procreate, they don't get to have the pleasure of sex and to do so goes against the natural order.

Enter safe and reliable birth control.

All of a sudden we can have sex with no concern about procreation. This separates sex-for-pleasure from sex-for-procreation. This is not Darwin's plan. He, like God, decreed that pleasure and procreation were coupled (so to speak). But Man has (thus far) fooled God and Darwin.

It has also created a huge problem for antiquated morals -- what is the social value of a moral that has no social consequence?

Anyway, that's kind of what I think.

Anderson Cooper just came out as gay. I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is but just thought I'd throw that in.

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TC
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