Any one here with domestic ventilation expertise?

[Stretch]

G'day Folks,

We live in a modern (European) concrete structure - reinforced concrete structure with no wooden floors made in the late 1950s.

A few years ago I installed replacement double glazing to the upstairs windows. They are good at cutting down noise, there's a noticable difference in warmth in the house (and a slight reduction in heating costs) but this has been at the cost of ventilation. The old windows leaked out the warmth big time but everything smelt a bit fresher!

We've been leaving the windows open but because so many people here think that "being at one with nature" involves having a wood burning stove the air is often as thick with smoke as it was in the early 1800s...

...so I guess the next option is to fit some sort of heat scavenging filtering system so that we can all breath fresh air again.

Has anyone got any tips or experience with this kind of thing?

[t walgamuth]

There should be a heat exchanging ventilator available I would think.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

There should be a heat exchanging ventilator available I would think.

There's an English (channel 4) TV program called Grand Designs and they often talk about these heat scavenging systems. I'm wondering if any one has got one or experienced one?

I've been told that hot air heating systems are a pain because they blow dust about the place / alternatively you really need to keep the dust down to a minimum with these systems - may be I'd get the same effect with a ventilation system?

And what about noise? I'm not able to sleep in the same room as a fridge (tried that in my boozing air force years) so if a ventilation system is as intrusive I guess I'll stick with the neighbourhood smoking problem.

[cullennewsom]

Activated charcoal air filters.

Trombe wall, or other solar heat system.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Army

There's an English (channel 4) TV program called Grand Designs and they often talk about these heat scavenging systems. I'm wondering if any one has got one or experienced one?

I've been told that hot air heating systems are a pain because they blow dust about the place / alternatively you really need to keep the dust down to a minimum with these systems - may be I'd get the same effect with a ventilation system?

And what about noise? I'm not able to sleep in the same room as a fridge (tried that in my boozing air force years) so if a ventilation system is as intrusive I guess I'll stick with the neighbourhood smoking problem.

forced air heating systems don't create dust. any dust suspended in the air has to go through a filter. the quality of the filter can be as high as you like to remove nearly all contaminents if you wish to pay the price for a really good filter. '

I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a heat exchanging exhaust/intake system that will fit in a douple hung window like a window AC unit.

[MS Fowler]

I will defer to our resident architect in such matters.
I would, however, say that windows have 2 functions, and they are confused--one function is to admit light to a room/space, and the other is for ventilation. In some cases, it might be better to separate the two functions.

[barry123400]

No real expertise really yet some experience.You may need a fresh air input directly to the wood stove. If the windows are sealed well and the structure is pretty tight overall. With concrete wall and floor construction I might suspect that by the way.

When the stove is running you might be developing negative pressure inside the house as well as a result . So the stove is going to smoke more when fuelling especially. Also might run poorly as well producing more combustion by products than otherwise to leak out into the inside enviroment.

By code we have to install heat exchanger systems in new home construction now in Canada.. The homes are just far too tight.

Examining those residential type heat exchange units. The efficiency of heat transfer between the incoming and outgoing air raises some questions in my mind. More show than go and hype than reality comes to mind.

I suspect the heat transfer is really very poor just better than none perhaps. Depending on other heating alternatives burning wood costs to the individual have to be looked at. How many cords are you burning a heating season on average?

You will always have to paint etc far more often and there are some health issues as well. And dirt is generated from wood in the handling. Yet if the wood itself is basically free other than cutting and splitting and handling it. It is a cheap heating source.

The economics of a concrete structure from an energy requirement perspective may be poor as well. Modern concrete domestic structures in north america have finally dealt reasonably well with the insulation issue. Not so well with the older ones usually.

So my limited thoughs are to try a direct to the stove a fresh air input from outside for combustion air first. This will also eliminate any chance of a negative pressure differential between the outside and inside developing. As far as the stove is concerned anyways.

Also examine the stove and flue setup very carefully for deficiencies in design or installation. An outside brick flue in a cold climate especially if oversized can be an issue. There are ways to deal with that.

All stoves for example are far from created equally. Also you might want to set up on the cheap and do an air change per hour calculation on the house. This will tell you if you really need an exchange system as well I suspect.

The principal reasons for air exchangers are to deal with excess humidity in a tight dwelling and to make sure you are not living in stale air. This is about the extent of my very limited knowledge in this area. Others will know a lot more. Other than I would tend to do a few tests of various types before deciding what is either required or the best way to spend the dollar. For example if the structure had several air changes per hour and no humidity issues I would not install an air exchanger. Concentrating more on why there is more smoke present in the house than should be present. Burning wood unfortunatly there will always be a small amount but it should not be noticeable in daily life.

Modern concrete home construction in north america utilizes two layers of foam insulation used as forms. A lot of rebar in them and this void filled with concrete. These houses should not from an economic perspective need to utilise wood heat except perhaps for a backup. Since your home is a modern european version if this type of construction. If it was properly done I would have expected it to be really tight and cheap to heat overall. So you would need the fresh air input to the woodstove and probably an air exchange unit as well. That depends on the climate a little though. Current methods of construction are kind to the concrete walls for example. They do not go through the typical freeze thaw cycles that a lot of previous concrete houses did. R insualtion values of the walls perhaps are about R twenty eight or more hopefully. Certain foams can be quite a bit higher R value wise. I have not built or investigated one of these myself so just do not know.

I would not heat with wood if the construction is much as I describe. It should be cheap to heat in my opinion unless the glass area is excessive or it is extremely large or there was a less than a really modern type of construction employed. The amount of cords of wood you are proccessing per season will answer that. Less than three cords I would pack in wood heating for sure at north american energy costs. Maybe even at less than four cords. As always though these are just my opinions and others will vary.

[Stretch]

Thanks for the detailed advice Barry - unfortunately I'm suffering from other people's smoke - I don't make any smoke.

I'll look a bit more into the technologies out there and see what is affordable.

Thanks go to everyone who have commented so far.

[t walgamuth]

What is a Heat Recovery Ventilator

Here is a link to a us based company who do heat recovery ventilators. I also found one in Australia.

I imagine there are some in Europe as well....Holland, or any of the scandinavian countries or Germany particularly. Just me guessing though.

[kerry]

Based on the title of the thread, the only basic rule I'm familiar with regarding domestic ventilation is 'Don't fart under the covers.'

[t walgamuth]

Around these parts if the man pulls the covers over his ladies head and farts they call it a Dutch Oven.

Apologies to the folks from the Netherlands.

[barry123400]

Originally Posted by Army

Thanks for the detailed advice Barry - unfortunately I'm suffering from other people's smoke - I don't make any smoke.

I'll look a bit more into the technologies out there and see what is affordable.

Thanks go to everyone who have commented so far.

Sorry i misunderstood. Reminds me of photographs around the turn of the century in towns. By products of heating where all over everything and airborn as well. About the only course of action that occurs to me for your problem. Is constantly slightly pressurizing your house with an air source that is well enough filtered to grab even the smallest smoke particles.

Except where weather conditions have all the local smoke rising away fast it would constantly run during the local heating system. If the house is fairly tight even a 1/10 hp blower might be adaquate. It is against code in many large and medium sized cities to burn wood in a stove without a catalytic converter installed. This would give you positive clean air changes as well through the leakage components of your house to some degree with clean incoming air.

Perhaps you could approach local authorities about your difficulty. Some areas already have codes on local air quality. There should be something out there in the marketplace that could be adapter to your needs. I suspect the cost lies in the sophisticated filter medium. Everything else should be simple. I have never heard of commercial systems like this with the exception of labs. Find the type of filter that meets your needs at a reasonable price and the rest should be easy.

[barry123400]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Around these parts if the man pulls the covers over his ladies head and farts they call it a Dutch Oven.

Apologies to the folks from the Netherlands.

The cover thing might be deemed suicide here.

Here I thought all these years that the only function of the odours created by flatuity are. The seriously hearing impared people would also know what you did.

Source identification can be a problem as well. The young fellow actually accused me of doing the deed a few weeks ago now. I simply told him it had to be him or the dog.

He without thinking leaned over and took a whiff of the air or what passed for air in the dogs posterior area. It will be the last time in his lifetime he ever does something like that again I think.

Between the dogs ability to create unbelievable rank and rancid odours from time to time. The young fellow got his nose right into the area of maximum concentration.

After he had satisfied himself about the source and he had stoped gagging. I just casually mentioned where you not aware humans cannot quite make that bad of an odour.

Even eating pickled eggs and drinking beer cannot do it. Today someone was asking how to strip paint. If the gentleman was to borrow this dog on the right day his problem would be solved. God that dog can cut them sometimes. He does it with a straight face as well.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by barry123400

The cover thing might be deemed suicide here.

Here I thought all these years that the only function of the odours created by flatuity are. The seriously hearing impared people would also know what you did.

Source identification can be a problem as well. The young fellow actually accused me of doing the deed a few weeks ago now. I simply told him it had to be him or the dog.

He without thinking leaned over and took a whiff of the air or what passed for air in the dogs posterior area. It will be the last time in his lifetime he ever does something like that again I think.

Between the dogs ability to create unbelievable rank and rancid odours from time to time. The young fellow got his nose right into the area of maximum concentration.

After he had satisfied himself about the source and he had stoped gagging. I just casually mentioned where you not aware humans cannot quite make that bad of an odour.

Even eating pickled eggs and drinking beer cannot do it. Today someone was asking how to strip paint. If the gentleman was to borrow this dog on the right day his problem would be solved. God that dog can cut them sometimes. He does it with a straight face as well.

love your last sentence!

[cullennewsom]

Originally Posted by barry123400

The cover thing might be deemed suicide here.

Here I thought all these years that the only function of the odours created by flatuity are. The seriously hearing impared people would also know what you did.

Source identification can be a problem as well. The young fellow actually accused me of doing the deed a few weeks ago now. I simply told him it had to be him or the dog.

He without thinking leaned over and took a whiff of the air or what passed for air in the dogs posterior area. It will be the last time in his lifetime he ever does something like that again I think.

Between the dogs ability to create unbelievable rank and rancid odours from time to time. The young fellow got his nose right into the area of maximum concentration.

After he had satisfied himself about the source and he had stoped gagging. I just casually mentioned where you not aware humans cannot quite make that bad of an odour.

Even eating pickled eggs and drinking beer cannot do it. Today someone was asking how to strip paint. If the gentleman was to borrow this dog on the right day his problem would be solved. God that dog can cut them sometimes. He does it with a straight face as well.

That made my sides hurt.