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Old 10-19-2012, 02:23 PM
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Timeline that will make your hair turn white- US national debt, 233 years

The United States National Debt -- 233 years in the making


this is an interesting timeline that details the national debt from the beginning of the nation, to now. From a fiscal perspective, it tells a chilling story.

the founding fathers had it right-

“But with respect to future debt; would it not be wise and just for that nation to declare in the constitution they are forming that neither the legislature, nor the nation itself can validly contract more debt, than they may pay within their own age, or within the term of 19 years.” – Thomas Jefferson

“No pecuniary consideration is more urgent, than the regular redemption and discharge of the public debt: on none can delay be more injurious, or an economy of time more valuable.” - George Washington


We as a nation are heading for bankruptcy. Read through the whole thing, its very interesting

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Last edited by JB3; 10-19-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:10 PM
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I couldn't agree more. The thought that my kids and their kids will be paying for this mess, because no one in Washington is willing to get their hands dirty, is an unpleasant one.

BTW, I haven't completely read the timeline yet but will be doing so this evening. It's a very interesting read!
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:15 PM
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though I never saw the research, a friend of mine said he documented twenty-two separate bankruptcy filings by the United States. I'm trying to figure out how an entity goes bankrupt multiple times.....perhaps that is a question for a lawyer......
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Old 10-19-2012, 04:42 PM
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It looks like Bill Clinton is the only champion of debt reduction or at least deficit reduction in recent years, and recent is defined as the last 75 years. That view is based upon what I read in the attachment. Kind of scarey ...I wonder what the debt load is for each American right now and could this amount ever be paid back? I wonder why Bill was not hired as a "Debt Czar" He seems to be the only one to tackle this issue in recent history.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
It looks like Bill Clinton is the only champion of debt reduction or at least deficit reduction in recent years, and recent is defined as the last 75 years. That view is based upon what I read in the attachment. Kind of scarey ...I wonder what the debt load is for each American right now and could this amount ever be paid back? I wonder why Bill was not hired as a "Debt Czar" He seems to be the only one to tackle this issue in recent history.

my opinion is that the answer is no. I believe that sooner or later, we are facing a massive default on government debts and the worst economic disaster in recorded history.

For me the tough decision has been one where when do I decide that money I might have in a municipal bond for an airport or something similar will now become money that I probably won't get back? I have a few bonds like this, and unloading them early (some are 30 year bonds) will have me taking a loss, but not unloading them means I stand to risk losing all of the money invested eventually.
Then at that point, the money will become worthless anyway, so how do I preserve any wealth or comfort ive managed to accumulate If I know eventually the dollar will become a good source of toilet paper? This is all super negative thinking, but regardless of political affiliation, neither party has shown the slightest desire to actually tackle the massive debt of this nation. And every hour, the US government spends millions it doesn't have.

People say that a massive default is never going to happen and that things are improving, but in 1970 when the US was the largest creditor in the world, the same people would have balked at the notion that in 2013 the US would be the largest debtor in the world.

Alarming thoughts
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by JB3 View Post
my opinion is that the answer is no. I believe that sooner or later, we are facing a massive default on government debts and the worst economic disaster in recorded history.

For me the tough decision has been one where when do I decide that money I might have in a municipal bond for an airport or something similar will now become money that I probably won't get back? I have a few bonds like this, and unloading them early (some are 30 year bonds) will have me taking a loss, but not unloading them means I stand to risk losing all of the money invested eventually.
Then at that point, the money will become worthless anyway, so how do I preserve any wealth or comfort ive managed to accumulate If I know eventually the dollar will become a good source of toilet paper? This is all super negative thinking, but regardless of political affiliation, neither party has shown the slightest desire to actually tackle the massive debt of this nation. And every hour, the US government spends millions it doesn't have.

People say that a massive default is never going to happen and that things are improving, but in 1970 when the US was the largest creditor in the world, the same people would have balked at the notion that in 2013 the US would be the largest debtor in the world.

Alarming thoughts
You should look into what happens to bond holders for airports and the such as some municipalities are considering and going through with leasing out those assets so the politicians can buy immediate votes and enrich their friends, it is just keeping them up nights figuring how to get that money today with out any regard to how are they going to replace that income next year. Who gets paid first unknown bond holders or those connected who stand to profit from that type of pilfering answer that. Just remember the supposedly secured bond holders of Chrysler and GM debt got a royal shafting so the politically connected and the unions could fill their pockets.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:58 AM
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You should look into what happens to bond holders for airports and the such as some municipalities are considering and going through with leasing out those assets so the politicians can buy immediate votes and enrich their friends, it is just keeping them up nights figuring how to get that money today with out any regard to how are they going to replace that income next year. Who gets paid first unknown bond holders or those connected who stand to profit from that type of pilfering answer that. Just remember the supposedly secured bond holders of Chrysler and GM debt got a royal shafting so the politically connected and the unions could fill their pockets.

Ive had airport construction and other municipal project bonds for quite a while, traditionally a US state municipal bond with a triple A rating has been the most safe and conservative way to invest money.
The downside is long term bonds and low profits comparatively, but to date, there is nothing but my growing default fear that disagrees with the safety and consistent return on investment of a US bond. They always pay back, and always do so on schedule.

Many of them ive purchased over the years have been bought back early at a decent profit by the state that started them, so I have not experienced or heard of what you describe happening. Sounds very much like conspiracy theory honestly unless you can substantiate it.

My feeling is despite the guaranteed return on investment and rock solid reliability of these types of bonds, that meanwhile the national debt spirals out of control in an ever expanding fashion.

Looking at it like the US was an individual that makes decent money, spends more than they make, borrows against it, and has always paid their bills, when it comes time to pay the piper, no one gets paid, even the bills that were always paid on time and in full.
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Old 08-22-2013, 11:41 AM
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Ive had airport construction and other municipal project bonds for quite a while, traditionally a US state municipal bond with a triple A rating has been the most safe and conservative way to invest money.
The downside is long term bonds and low profits comparatively, but to date, there is nothing but my growing default fear that disagrees with the safety and consistent return on investment of a US bond. They always pay back, and always do so on schedule.

Many of them ive purchased over the years have been bought back early at a decent profit by the state that started them, so I have not experienced or heard of what you describe happening. Sounds very much like conspiracy theory honestly unless you can substantiate it.

My feeling is despite the guaranteed return on investment and rock solid reliability of these types of bonds, that meanwhile the national debt spirals out of control in an ever expanding fashion.

Looking at it like the US was an individual that makes decent money, spends more than they make, borrows against it, and has always paid their bills, when it comes time to pay the piper, no one gets paid, even the bills that were always paid on time and in full.
I have been reading that the city of Chicago IL is considering leasing out to a private party the Midway Airport operations. So if that does come to fruition what is to say that the bond holders would be made whole. Our government OKyd the deal that wiped out the bond holders which should have been first in line with the GM and Chrysler take overs and rewarded their political allies like UAW instead. The City of Chicago also leased all of the parking meters to a Daley cohort for what has been reported at about fifty cents on the dollar and most of the money has been spent in less than five years and the lease goes for seventy five years. So I am just saying that there are so many instances that show our politicians will stop at nothing to steal today and give to their friends what they would get honestly tomorrow. And they would be stealing your money if you were made to forfeit those bonds.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:22 PM
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My feeling right or wrong is that the future actual purchasing power of money held in many ways by many of us might be low. Even with the accured earnings. This in comparison to the times of investment. For example general taxation may be much higher when we want to use the funds than now.

A serious financial collapse may restore the purchasing power but like a two edged sword those investments may be hit hard then as well.

My second point is money in my opinion was not developed to use as many of us do including myself. I think times have changed but general attitudes including my own may not have changed fast enough to compensate.

Currently I see us as a consumer driven society. If and when that changes if ever there may be serious issues. There is little doubt in my mind that society in general is living beyond their sensible means currently. Or too many of them percentagewise to ignore as a factor.

There is enough wrong for example that raising interest rates to historical levels might bring the house of cards down. Or at least create fairly serious damage.. Based on this I feel that low interest rates historically are going to basically remain. What if I am wrong though?

Faith in the system to a certain point is fine. We may have reached or gone past the point where that should be looked at by the individual.

Until something happens the cost of living continuously increasing at a pretty rapid rate has to be almost a given in my mind. Attempts to keep minumin wages at a semi liveable level for example are reciently one cause of many smaller business closures locally. Five restaurants for example this month.

There is not a lot of stimulus to increase wages with so high an unemployment and welfare rate in todays society either. There are solid indicators this year that money or at least the disposable part of it is tight and may be getting more so.

I am not taking the view that the sky is falling either. Just that there are possible changes occurring that may not be for the general benefit of conservative people.
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by greazzer View Post
It looks like Bill Clinton is the only champion of debt reduction or at least deficit reduction in recent years, and recent is defined as the last 75 years.
Don't forget Ron Paul so fast now...
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:04 PM
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though I never saw the research, a friend of mine said he documented twenty-two separate bankruptcy filings by the United States. I'm trying to figure out how an entity goes bankrupt multiple times.....perhaps that is a question for a lawyer......
As a credit underwriter for a large bank I can assure you that the answer is many times. The record I personally have seen is 4 for one person. I dont know how they kept getting loans.

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