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kerry · #31 01-08-2013, 01:38 PM

We have better historical documentation of Joseph Smith's existence than we do of Jesus.

elchivito · #32 01-08-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Exactly what does Bart say that proves the existence?

Absent a marked physical tomb containing verifiably untampered-with remains, you'd have a pretty tough time proving any individual existed 2000 years ago. Most biblical historians, including the agnostic cited above, accept the existence of the historical Jesus. That doesn't mean they accept all the mythology connected to him. I believe the OP is asking us if we accept his divinity, his being the only path to some sort of personal "salvation", not whether he existed as an individual in history.
I don't have any problem with the existence of the man, perhaps a very special man, but the magic tricks and zombie routine? Pass. I further reject a "god" who'd be so mean spirited as to eternally punish his creations for choosing to use the mental faculties HE gave them. Trained animals do their tricks for offered treats or anticipated pops with a rolled up newspaper, not human beings.

aklim · #33 01-08-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

I believe that it does. God has never allowed me to go hungry and has made sure I seem to have what I NEED, even when I didn't know I needed it at the time. Even as a child, when my parents worried over every penny (we were on welfare at the time due to a bad business partner dad had) there was always food. There was always shelter. There was always love...Like I said, things I NEED, not things I want.

So correlation means causation? Because you got things you need it means it was caused by some being or to be specific, this being? The ancients had a good track record of people making noise to scare off the monster eating the sun. Worked too but would we say that because it correlates to what was desirable it was caused by someone or vice versa. Otherwise every bad thing is also caused by this deity.

cmbdiesel · #34 01-08-2013, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Actually, to accept is to download a certain kind of software which gives a person access to an otherwise invisible world.

Avast blocked my download....

elchivito · #35 01-08-2013, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So correlation means causation? Because you got things you need it means it was caused by some being or to be specific, this being? The ancients had a good track record of people making noise to scare off the monster eating the sun. Worked too but would we say that because it correlates to what was desirable it was caused by someone or vice versa. Otherwise every bad thing is also caused by this deity.

It's called magical thinking. It's easy.

kerry · #36 01-08-2013, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

It's called magical thinking. It's easy.

That's why I wrote that it's very similar to a downloadable software program. Most moderns have software which explains physical events with material causes. Hurricanes are caused by water temperature, evaporation, wind currents etc. Conservative Protestants download an additional program which explains how there is a giant personal will behind the material causes of events. Hence hurricanes can become instruments of divine punishment or pay checks can become the result of the actions of the giant personal will which cares about the lives of humans.

jplinville · #37 01-08-2013, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

We have better historical documentation of Joseph Smith's existence than we do of Jesus.

150 years versus 2000 years ago...plus survival of many different governments and the like.

aklim · #38 01-08-2013, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

It's called magical thinking. It's easy.

I guess I have no imagination so it isn't that easy for me.

martureo · #39 01-08-2013, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Exactly what does Bart say that proves the existence?

Am I to assume you are a Jesus Mythicist?

I would point you to the mountain of references to him, both Christian, non-Christian and secular.

....or you could buy Ehrman's newest book.
Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780062204608: Amazon.com: Books

martureo · #40 01-08-2013, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

We have better historical documentation of Joseph Smith's existence than we do of Jesus.

And we have better documentation of John Kerry's existence than we do for Joseph Smith.

And?

Oh yeah... your argument sucks. Like normal.

Skid Row Joe · #41 01-08-2013, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Catholic Church hasn't done you yet?

The Catholic Church has presented itself to me through their instruction as; 'a one-stop guarantee to everlasting life after death.'

While I don't buy into that notion, I don't dismiss their teachings as 'the boogey man' either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Did they have unions about the time he was alleged to have exist? Did anyone ask him? Are the scribblings all the chronicles of his life which includes every action and word spoken or just some selected passages? Maybe he DID say something but nobody jotted it down? It's not like he had a scribe follow him around from the first day he was able to speak til he got nailed, in more ways than one. Assuming he did exist in the way it was told and not like the fish story where the fish gets bigger with each telling.

I don't follow. If he does exist, what is there to argue? I don't argue that the sun rises in the East. I will argue that it won't rise in the West tomorrow.

Reading your past writings here on OT, it was my sense/understanding that you do not believe in the after-life as this Jesus guy was reported as foretelling of. I recall that you believe that religions are pedalling control because of the 'boogey man.' I took this as your referencing the Almighty to be a made up entity. Is this true so far, and if so, then the whole Almighty entity existing to you, is just myth, no?

kerry · #42 01-08-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

And we have better documentation of John Kerry's existence than we do for Joseph Smith.

And?

.

If it's rational to proportion your belief to the evidence you'll have the most confidence that John Kerry existed, less confidence that Joseph Smith existed, and the least confidence that Jesus existed.

martureo · #43 01-08-2013, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

If it's rational to proportion your belief to the evidence you'll have the most confidence that John Kerry existed, less confidence that Joseph Smith existed, and the least confidence that Jesus existed.

Which means.....?

....that you still have nothing of worth to add to any thread concerning religion.

kerry · #44 01-08-2013, 03:24 PM

If you want to have a high degree of evidence in the religious beliefs you hold, stay away from religions which base their claims on historical events which by comparison have a low degree of evidence.

This fact explains why religions like Buddhism which rely on virtually no crucial historical facts but on direct personal experience, are more attractive nowadays to the West than historical supernatural religions. They're much easier to belief and require far less in the way of dubious propositions.

aklim · #45 01-08-2013, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Am I to assume you are a Jesus Mythicist?

I would point you to the mountain of references to him, both Christian, non-Christian and secular.

....or you could buy Ehrman's newest book.
Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth: Bart D. Ehrman: 9780062204608: Amazon.com: Books

OK. Do they document the miracles and proof? Any of it reproducible?

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