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  #61  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Had our daughter's lead levels tested regularly when she was young since we live in an old house. I'm under the impression that most dangerously high lead levels in children come from living in old houses surrounded by dirt and not grass. Children playing in the dirt pick up all the lead which is deposited from the air or from paint chips from the house.

I read at one time, that the biggest danger for children in old houses, is them actually putting their mouth on the paint or rubbing it with their hands and putting their hands in their mouth. You know how small children can be.

In Boston, during home renovation, they have an elaborate process that is required. They cover the house and have some sort of ventilation system while the workers completely strip all paint below about five feet from the floor.

You are very wise for paying close attention to this issue with your children.

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  #62  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Well, I guess we're in the clear then.

I'm regularly amazed at the stubborn clamor for the 'jet packs we were promised.' Yeah, what could go wrong? A bunch of people flying about somewhat at random with a load of explosive fuel strapped to their back.

We'll not be able to rid the world of any and all danger, but the danger of small planes, sometimes with haphazard maintenance histories, falling on people and their homes unexpectedly is one danger that strikes me as one that can be done away with.

Large jetliners can also fall on people and their homes but at least large resources back up engineering and maintenance on such things.


Do you care to backup this claim with facts?
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  #63  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:32 AM
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I don't have a breakdown of how many GA aircraft are jets. It would be interesting to know. Obviously it is not a large percentage.

Whatever the remaining number of the 200,000 or so small aircraft is piston engine, their use still represents a tiny fraction of a percent of all the gasoline burned in this country.

To begin with, of all those planes registered, MANY of them are sitting in hangars or outside all over the place and haven't been flown in years. Of the ones that are in fact in annual, and flown, the average pilot flies less than 100 hours per year, many pilots fly a LOT less than 100 hours.

With most GA planes using less than 10 gallons per hour, and a big chunk of that number actually using 6 or less, you are taking about a drop in the bucket compared to the gasoline burned by other vehicles.

Of the GA planes that are current and flown regularly, many of them have Mogas STC's and don't even burn 100LL. Also the LL stands for LOW lead. It is not even close to the amount of lead that was used in car gas back before 1975.

This tiny fraction of gasoline that is burned in these few aircraft, is scattered across the entire US sky. Trying to measure the result in parts per million would be ridiculous. If it COULD be measured it would have to be in parts per gazillion if you didn't want LOTS of zeros to the right of the decimal point.

The whole claim is ridiculous. There is a lot going on surrounding this issue, and there likely will be no more 100LL within the next few years. That means that there will be a decrease in reliability of small aircraft engines. In all likelihood, this will result in a few dead pilots and passengers. That will probably make a few folks very happy.
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  #64  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
Gotta die of something, may as well not be crapping, pissing, and drooling all over myself in some motherfawking nursing home when I'm 95. Speaking to all on PP: don't criticize people's decision to fly small planes even if you're too cowardly to step in one yourself!
I fly in them and ride a motorcycle every day. no worries here, just pointing out that GA is way different than transport category flying....
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  #65  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by link View Post
We live near an airport and I can certainly agree on the irritation caused by noise pollution. That is imo, only a symptom of a larger issue.

The real problem with small planes is that they have become the number 1 contributor of lead poisoning. Accordingly, most small planes burn avgas, which is leaded fuel. While unleaded avgas is sold in Europe and Japan, it is not sold in North America.

The EPA has only recently started to monitor lead emissions from 15 airports across the nation, which doesn’t even rise to a half-hearted gesture, imo.

Small Airplanes A Major Source Of Lead Pollution
Unleaded avgas is on the near horizon soon. EPA/FAA, etc and industry are working on changing that in the next few years.
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  #66  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
I hate to admit, this is the first I'd heard of small planes still using leaded fuel. A bit surprising as I suspect that the moving of auto fuel to lead free was done by govt. mandate.
many, many GA planes now have STCs (Supplemental type certificates) that allow the use of unleaded gas to be used. Most owners do it for cost savings. Almost every FBO has an unleaded pump.
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  #67  
Old 08-19-2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by link View Post

One of the articles I read indicated that at some airports which sell avgas can deliver up to 500 or 1000 lbs. of lead a day (iirc) into the air proximate to the airport. Lead doesn’t float very long and that’s likely why people tested up to a mile away the subject airports showed elevated blood levels of lead.
from what i can find avgas 100/130 has 4 grams of lead per gallon.at this rate that would come out to a minimum of 56,000 gallons per day.thats alot of gas.and i doubt these planes are just circling the airport in a holding pattern all day.so that would mean they would have to sell that much more gas.take my dads old cessna 170.for us to take off and hit that 1 mile make,and from that 1 mile make to land i doubt we used a gallon maybe 2 at the very most then we were gone,so the other 40 gallons or so we used elsewhere.that sounds like one busy airport by any stretch of the imagination.
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  #68  
Old 08-19-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by catmandoo62 View Post
from what i can find avgas 100/130 has 4 grams of lead per gallon.at this rate that would come out to a minimum of 56,000 gallons per day.thats alot of gas.and i doubt these planes are just circling the airport in a holding pattern all day.so that would mean they would have to sell that much more gas.take my dads old cessna 170.for us to take off and hit that 1 mile make,and from that 1 mile make to land i doubt we used a gallon maybe 2 at the very most then we were gone,so the other 40 gallons or so we used elsewhere.that sounds like one busy airport by any stretch of the imagination.

Just to help put this in perspective.

Addison airport in the North Dallas area at one time was the busiest GA airport in the world, but I don't think that is now the case. Anyway, it is a BUSY airport. It averages 267 take offs per day.

My little airport is more typical and it averages 109 per WEEK.

If I understood what you wrote, I am shocked that there is 56,000 gallons sold per day. It SOUNDS like that is including Jet A, which of course has no lead. Even if it is correct, 56,000 gallons a day is indeed a SMALL DROP in the bucket compared to the road vehicle gasoline sold every day.

There are about 4,000 airports in the US, so if it is correct that is only 14 gallons per day, per airport. That would sound like a feasible number, given that most airports are sleepy little places that aren't even manned. No tower, no one on field to sell gas, only a self service pump at most of them.
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  #69  
Old 08-19-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
Do you care to backup this claim with facts?
Better pack a lunch:

Workers Facing Charges After Shoddy Airplane Repairs « CBS Sacramento

Quote:
LINCOLN (CBS13) — Federal investigators have filed charges against six workers from a defunct local business for allegedly performing fraudulent repair on a wide range of aircraft, including an incident where a paperclip was used to complete maintenance on an airplane.

United States Attorney Benjamin Wagner announced Thursday that 36 counts of conspiracy and fraud were filed against former executives and supervisors at WECO Aerospace Systems Inc., an FAA-certified air repair station that was bought out by another company in 2007.
Plane crashes into Washington flat - YouTube

small airplane shoddy maintenance - Google Search

I do get that most accidents are the result of pilot error.
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  #70  
Old 08-19-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
Gotta die of something, may as well not be crapping, pissing, and drooling all over myself in some motherfawking nursing home when I'm 95. Speaking to all on PP: don't criticize people's decision to fly small planes even if you're too cowardly to step in one yourself!
This is rich, by the way. The only reason a person might criticize small planes is because they're cowardly?

I also avoid snowmobile racing, especially the track variety. Oh boy, what a thrill that would be to have a snowmobile land on you. Pragmatism moves me to avoid a number of adrenaline rush experiences. I've often thought that skydiving would be pretty wild but have concluded that it's just too much of a cheap thrill. I go for semi-rugged mountain climbing instead. Not the oxygen supported snow and ice variety, rather 9 or 10 K altitude fair weather climbs. I'm not nuts.
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  #71  
Old 08-19-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post

There will ALWAYS be isolated instances for anything. You originally wrote it as if the practice was widespread. It is NOT. The vast majority of AP's and IA's who sign off on aircraft maintenance and repair are SERIOUS about the responsibility. MOST of them understand full well that peoples lives are in their hands.
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  #72  
Old 08-19-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
This is rich, by the way. The only reason a person might criticize small planes is because they're cowardly?

I also avoid snowmobile racing, especially the track variety. Oh boy, what a thrill that would be to have a snowmobile land on you. Pragmatism moves me to avoid a number of adrenaline rush experiences. I've often thought that skydiving would be pretty wild but have concluded that it's just too much of a cheap thrill. I go for semi-rugged mountain climbing instead. Not the oxygen supported snow and ice variety, rather 9 or 10 K altitude fair weather climbs. I'm not nuts.
We're not talking about air-racing here which would be an apt comparison to snowmobile racing or motocross.

Unlimited-class air-racing = insanity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntVBN0W3fpA

Last edited by spdrun; 08-19-2013 at 03:55 PM.
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  #73  
Old 08-19-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
There will ALWAYS be isolated instances for anything.
Mark these words, shall we?
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  #74  
Old 08-19-2013, 04:36 PM
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Not sure if Weco did GA repair work....but yes, there is always a probability that repair and maintenance is not done correctly, esp in planes not flow for profit.
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  #75  
Old 08-19-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Interesting? You don't need to be near an airport to be assaulted by the noise of a small plane. I was working today at a house in North Oakland, might be Berkelely, not sure, near 58th and Telegraph. It was one small plane after another overhead, with a few choppers in the mix (I gather pilots don't like the chopper appellation). Bleeping annoying. It was a hot day - windows open, I could barely hear any auto traffic as she's a block away from Telegraph but you could hear every small plane or CHOPPER for several minutes each. After a couple hours of steady noise, it quieted down, this about 6 pm.

The lady said she's wondered more than once if she's on some flight path. There are no airports anywhere close to her house.

Oh but hey, it's like their right to pollute the world with noise cuz flying is so rad, dude.
Don't step on the choppers. They are most like Police choppers making sure you and your family are safe.

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