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  #1  
Old 04-08-2014, 01:32 PM
Inna-propriate-da-vida
 
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
GOOD GRIEF! That's what I've been saying. All the old man has to do is issue a duty roster that authorizes key individuals to draw and carry side arms when they come on post for work.

We're talking about an Army post for gosh sakes! There are people trained and qualified to carry and use weopons. The MP's and other post security can't be everywhere. Having some higher level, responsibile personnel armed, puts people around everywhere who have a chance of defending in such a situation with something more than their pocket knife in their hand.

Given the fact that most Generals today are politicians that are working toward another star, most of them don't want to do anything politically incorrect and initiate such a simple step on their own. If the POTUS OTOH told them to do something about it, they have everything in place to simply tell their Exec to get someone to put together such a duty roster.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND?

And yes, from where I sit it IS the fault of the CIC. If he were a competent leader, after the first massacre at Fort Hood, he would have told one of his underlings to talk to the Post Commander and do something to increase security. 30 seconds of his time would do it, and a REAL leader would have instinctively done that out of the natural concern for his people that a REAL leader naturally possesses.

For those of you unaware, leadership is supposed to come from the TOP DOWN, not the BOTTOM UP.
Let's be realistic. The CINC is not really a military man. He relies upon intel from the officer corp to make decisions, and those decisions are not typically in regards to day-to-day operations. Those kind of decisions are delegated in the military as they are in most large organizations.
If the ability to have more armed personnel resides with the base commander, then they are the ones immediately responsible to ensure that it happens.

I understand that responsibility flows upwards, so in essence, the CINC is ultimately responsible. But I think it is fair to say that unless the need was presented to him and/or the ability to rectify was denied to the commanders because of edicts from the CINC, then placing the blame on him is not entirely deserved. At least not until you wore out the backside of the post commander.

As I stated earlier, I'm sure that you and many other veterans (thanks for your service) would be profoundly upset if POTUS started nosing into day to day military affairs...
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  #2  
Old 04-08-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cmbdiesel View Post
Let's be realistic. The CINC is not really a military man. He relies upon intel from the officer corp to make decisions, and those decisions are not typically in regards to day-to-day operations. Those kind of decisions are delegated in the military as they are in most large organizations.
If the ability to have more armed personnel resides with the base commander, then they are the ones immediately responsible to ensure that it happens.

I understand that responsibility flows upwards, so in essence, the CINC is ultimately responsible. But I think it is fair to say that unless the need was presented to him and/or the ability to rectify was denied to the commanders because of edicts from the CINC, then placing the blame on him is not entirely deserved. At least not until you wore out the backside of the post commander.

As I stated earlier, I'm sure that you and many other veterans (thanks for your service) would be profoundly upset if POTUS started nosing into day to day military affairs...

I still contend, that after the major event of the nutzoid doctor, at least as it was portrayed in the press, a REAL leader would have taken the very few seconds it takes to say something to an underling like "check into, or see to, or ensure that, or report back to me on..... the security on that post. A REAL leader will do that sort of thing. Of course with the current POTUS resume, he had zero experience in this area before entering the whitehouse and from all indications the OJT hasn't produced anything yet. He had time to make sure it was labeled as workplace violence instead of the OBVIOUS terrorism that it actually was.

The generals are politicians, they know to follow whatever tone that is set by the administration. They know that the current administration has no regard for the second ammendment, so they don't want to get involved with the stigma that a few soldiers carrying on post might put forth in the press. They want another star and will do whatever for it, just like a congressman will do anything to get elected for another term.

BTW, soldiers don't question their chain of command. They might gripe about amongst themselves but they don't complain up the chain. They also respect a commander at any level when he is doing something to protect them.
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  #3  
Old 04-08-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
You need to read more carefully Tom. I made it clear that it was proposed that experienced officers and senior NCOs could be on a duty roster such that when it is their turn, they would draw arms and ammo to be armed as they go about their on post business. If people would have been armed and scattered around the post there could have been armed soldiers in the vicinity of the guy, with the means to stop him before more people were hurt or killed. WHY is this difficult to understand?

The only time that all troops are armed WITH ammo is when issued same in a combat theater of operation.
Oh, thanks, I need to be more careful what I say....like you are.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
Oh, thanks, I need to be more careful what I say....like you are.

Yeah, and you need to be careful in your reading as well.
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  #5  
Old 04-08-2014, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Air&Road View Post
Yeah, and you need to be careful in your reading as well.
For someone who has not served a lot of this is hard to picture. For those of you who did it is all very vivid.
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  #6  
Old 04-08-2014, 04:47 PM
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If Billy Bob Smith had hollered alehu alkbar as he was shooting his victims I would be a tad suspicious that he might harbor radical Islamist notions that are a common characteristic of Islamic terrorists.

Or say, Richard Reed…..

But that's just me.
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  #7  
Old 04-08-2014, 07:11 PM
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Hood Major 'Shot in Gut' Helped Other Soldiers | Military.com

I wonder if Major Miller is eligible for a valor commendation since he was not in theater?

Major Miller Is a good example of our nations finest.
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  #8  
Old 04-08-2014, 11:25 PM
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Maybe they should prohibit all weapons, don't seem to be a right solution: Marine guard shot to death by colleague at NC base
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  #9  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:36 AM
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Maybe they should prohibit all weapons, don't seem to be a right solution: Marine guard shot to death by colleague at NC base
I like that idea -- a disarmed military. It would sure be a lot safer to be around them.
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  #10  
Old 04-09-2014, 08:01 AM
Inna-propriate-da-vida
 
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
I like that idea -- a disarmed military. It would sure be a lot safer to be around them.
Give 'em all sparklers and they could be '1000 Points Of Light'......
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  #11  
Old 04-09-2014, 08:35 AM
waterboarding w/medmech
 
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Originally Posted by Jorn View Post
Maybe they should prohibit all weapons, don't seem to be a right solution: Marine guard shot to death by colleague at NC base
please............
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  #12  
Old 04-09-2014, 08:02 AM
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Golly, it makes me want to burst into song!
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  #13  
Old 04-09-2014, 08:40 PM
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On my ship we had a Barney Fife approach -- in port there was a sailor on the quarterdeck with a pistol but the mag was kept on the belt.

Sailors could have private firearms aboard for E-4 and above. I had a .22 High Standard auto. Each weapon was registered with the ship and locked up in an armory with the ammo stored separately.

Marines carried all kind of shyte from sidearms to mortars. They were locked-up, too. I think we locked the marines up separately, but that was understandable.

Bet rules ail have to change a bit when we get personal rail guns.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2014, 05:50 AM
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It just goes to show that no matter how much training, discipline and security the State imposes, people will do what they will. It isn't external rules that prevent slaughter, it is internal.
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  #15  
Old 04-10-2014, 10:30 AM
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Most likely it was also easier to get a murder conviction. There was never any doubt that that maggot did the killing. Terrorism would have been a higher hurdle. Too bad the female security guard didn't shoot him dead and save the country some grief and lots of $$.
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