What does it mean to separate Church and State? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Idle · #16 05-05-2014, 04:02 PM

And.....

The Oklahoma Constitution forbids the use of any government property, of any type, to be used for a religious reason by anyone. That's why the whole 'Ten Commandments on the courthouse lawn' fad dried up here in Oklahoma. There is no legal way to do it.

(I found it interesting that when a Democrat was governor here this fad was in full swing. The day a Republican was elected governor all efforts to place any such monuments ceased.)

But saying prayers at the opening of a meeting is not considered a religious use. It is considered a tradition and therefore is allowed under Oklahoma law.

And it is considered a tradition because it predates the adoption of the state Constitution and it is not used for religions teachings.

Dudesky · #17 05-05-2014, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

The capital dome was finished in 1866. So that seems to make it impossible for church services to have been held there prior to the civil war up to 1866.

Capitol building. excuse me.

Dudesky · #18 05-05-2014, 04:28 PM

Was Capitol Building, my error.

So what was the big delay between after the end of the civil war up until 1961?

Quote:

Many people are surprised to learn that the United States Capitol regularly served as a church building; a practice that began even before Congress officially moved into the building and lasted until well after the Civil War. Below is a brief history of the Capitol's use as a church, and some of the prominent individuals who attended services there.
WallBuilders - Issues and Articles - Church in the U.S. Capitol

pj67coll · #19 05-05-2014, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

The founding fathers had seen the Church of England having government support, essentially forcing people to that church or none at all. They did not want to see this happen here. Therefore the idea was to protect the church from the government NOT the other way around.

Larry. Really. You know better than that.

- Peter.

Jim B. · #20 05-05-2014, 05:28 PM

In Iran and many other muslim states, church and state ARE inextricably intertwined...

Dudesky · #21 05-05-2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B.

In Iran and many other muslim states, church and state ARE inextricably intertwined...

Theocracies.

Islam through CAIR and a few others have deeply penetrated our government and influence policy and decisions.

Our official religion now?

Jim B. · #22 05-05-2014, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudesky

Theocracies.

Islam through CAIR and a few others have deeply penetrated our government and influence policy and decisions.

Our official religion now?

Plutocracy.

MONEY ..if you ask me...

MTI · #23 05-05-2014, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudesky

Was Capitol Building, my error.

So what was the big delay between after the end of the civil war up until 1961?

1961?

ramonajim · #24 05-05-2014, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudesky

Theocracies.

Islam through CAIR and a few others have deeply penetrated our government and influence policy and decisions.

Our official religion now?

Seriously?!?

Got anything even vaguely resembling data to back up that claim of deep penetration and influence?

elchivito · #25 05-05-2014, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

The founding fathers had seen the Church of England having government support, essentially forcing people to that church or none at all. They did not want to see this happen here. Therefore the idea was to protect the church from the government NOT the other way around. I'm sorry if the SCOTUS saw it that way this morning against your own personal desires. That pesky constitution again.

The founding fathers didn't want the government forcing people to go to a particular church. So, in order to protect that church they separated religion and government. Because what church would want the government forcing people to belong to it?

Um, OK

elchivito · #26 05-05-2014, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

The founding fathers had seen the Church of England having government support, essentially forcing people to that church or none at all. They did not want to see this happen here. Therefore the idea was to protect the church from the government NOT the other way around. I'm sorry if the SCOTUS saw it that way this morning against your own personal desires. That pesky constitution again.

What church were they protecting this time?

kerry · #27 05-05-2014, 06:48 PM

Church and state are united in places like England, Holland, Germany, Sweden etc also.

Botnst · #28 05-05-2014, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

The founding fathers had seen the Church of England having government support, essentially forcing people to that church or none at all. They did not want to see this happen here...

This they did not want on a national basis. But they were more than happy to allow it at the state level. Several states (notably Virginia) had preferential treatment of certain sects written into law. The notion that church and state are anathema is a more recent innovation.

What I like most about this decision is that it puts the burden on the lowest-level governmental institution to make rules that apply equally to all comers. Thus, if some Christian sect is allowed in, Zoroastrians can demand an equal opportunity.

I expect the long-term end result will be so much wrangling over the microphone (in court, in news papers, in pulpits) that the governmental body in question will call a pox on all houses and advance to where they should be -- government absent all religious observance.

Botnst · #29 05-05-2014, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim B.

In Iran and many other muslim states, church and state ARE inextricably intertwined...

that is the history of humanity up until the Christian Reformation movements, where suddenly people discovered that Jesus himself wanted a separation of church and state.

elchivito · #30 05-05-2014, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

This they did not want on a national basis. But they were more than happy to allow it at the state level. Several states (notably Virginia) had preferential treatment of certain sects written into law. The notion that church and state are anathema is a more recent innovation.

What I like most about this decision is that it puts the burden on the lowest-level governmental institution to make rules that apply equally to all comers. Thus, if some Christian sect is allowed in, Zoroastrians can demand an equal opportunity.

I expect the long-term end result will be so much wrangling over the microphone (in court, in news papers, in pulpits) that the governmental body in question will call a pox on all houses and advance to where they should be -- government absent all religious observance.

It'll be fun to watch. As an ordained minister and pastor of The Church of Lloyd Bridges (The Lloyd Our God, praise his holy name) I plan to demand a life size replica of The Argonaut be placed on the Arizona State Capitol grounds.

The Lloyd Our God

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode