I'll put it this way. I used to work in RF Filter design. The RF engineers I worked with did much of their design using simple calculations and experience as the closest RF modeling software would take hours to estimate the problem. My current field of design doesn't have any software to model what we're doing, it just doesn't exist yet.

So, I'm trying to get a specific piece of data from a specific part of the system which I'm adapting for a new design. To tell me that my problem is either the result of a "stupid customer" or a "schoolhouse exercise" is pretty pedantic.

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Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat

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1984 300D "Elsa" odo reset 6/2011 160k [315k total]
1983 300TD "Mitzi" ~268k OM603 powered
1995 E300 "Adelheid" 262k [Sold]

Not to worry Marturo (? SP ?) ;

Not everyone is able to handle working through a knotty problem, they just throw their hands hands up and say 'it cannot be done !' or make other excuses / roadblocks .

A closed mind will never learn anything new .

I know bupkis about Engineering but I find this discussion fascinating and hope to learn the final solution in time .

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-Nate
1982 240D 408,XXX miles
Ignorance is the mother of suspicion and fear is the father

I did then what I knew how to do ~ now that I know better I do better

Is there a way to measure whats going in against whats coming out?

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Satan creates nothing: he only ruins everything. He does not invent: he tampers. And his followers are no different ~ Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò

It is a closed system for ease of description .So what does go in the exact same amount that goes out. Actually that is just a distraction from the problem.


There just are too many variables plus unknowns to use other than actual measurement. From what information has been presented. The air velocity above the water also makes it difficult. A calibrated laser fired in might eliminate the air velocity factor. In high wind velocity water is blown flat for a period. So you might get a reading of the level. Before the surface reaction starts to establish itself.

Either you haven’t fully explained the parameters of your problem or we are too stupid to understand it.

There are LOTS of off the shelf acoustic, propeller, resistance and laser instruments for detecting flow regardless of flow direction, viscosity, clarity or velocity. I’ve used them in groundwater studies and marsh flow research. Or use a sightglass to look at water level vs outflow rate. If none of these options are amenable then clearly I’m too stupid to understand the problem.

In that case, try the USGS water science group. If you stump them then your problem is new to science.

you might be on to it. Just measure it somewhere else.

I looked at both laser and sonar sensors for the water. The biggest problem is that the water surface isn't consistent enough, it surges from second to second. I tried using the sonar sensor but couldn't get consistent readings as the sensor wasn't feeding data quickly enough, I got too many high points and couldn't get reliable data to sift through. As for the laser sensor, I was told by the company which was going to sell it to me that I'd end up with a mountain of useless data because of the misting.


Because of schedule I decided to mark the end of the gutters with graduations using a 3D printed jig. The jig will fit each version of the gutters and can be anchored to certain datum features. We filmed the flow from several different angles to counter any perspective problems. So we have baseline data, but I'm not happy with it.

We'll have to figure out the next steps once the prototype unit gets built.

I'm still of the opinion that a tell tale, after-the-fact measurement would be the best, but aside from the chemicals and pastes which are toxic to everyone in the building, I'm at a loss.

__________________
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat

I recondition w123/w126/w124/w140/r107/r129/ steering boxes!


1984 300D "Elsa" odo reset 6/2011 160k [315k total]
1983 300TD "Mitzi" ~268k OM603 powered
1995 E300 "Adelheid" 262k [Sold]

Can a reflective float be set where the laser could focus on that.

__________________
Satan creates nothing: he only ruins everything. He does not invent: he tampers. And his followers are no different ~ Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò

Again, a tiny port drilled in the bottom of the gutter, piped to a glass tube mounted on a pole or wall. It would give you direct, real time visibility.

Yes, though the response time is less than instantaneous and it sound like due to transient surges, he wants instantaneous. I would think that a series of horizontal cross sectional approximation of the gutter shape. Acoustic sensor is lowered through each section to get velocity per section. Gather data at time interval less than surge rate. Then integrate via Taylor’s Theorem.

Instantaneous? He started out with water soluble paint. The time it takes to propagate a pressure pulse through a tube is about the speed of sound. Faster than watching paint melt.

I know what you mean. Problem definition is a moving target.

The definition hasn't changed.

You suggest something and I respond if it's a viable option or not.

__________________
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat

I recondition w123/w126/w124/w140/r107/r129/ steering boxes!


1984 300D "Elsa" odo reset 6/2011 160k [315k total]
1983 300TD "Mitzi" ~268k OM603 powered
1995 E300 "Adelheid" 262k [Sold]

So far We have suggested several off the shelf, well known technologies, that have been applied to flow problems from tubing to viscous, turbid subsurface flow and you haven’t responded to any of those proven technologies. You did respond to the parameterization problem that shifts with suggested methods.

Have you looked at off-the-shelf:
Sightglasses
Acoustics
Lasers
Pressure sensors
Integration of sectional velocities at depth intervals by Taylor’s Theorem


Except for the last, all are instantaneous readings. Using the last, several methods can be used to derive interval depths like laser soundings, pressure transducers and velocity flow meters.

I rotate back to this post periodically out of curiosity. What exact shape is the water trough? is it possible to make a dam that you lower in until the water almost starts to back up? Behind it. As it is flowing.


After some thought and having limited instrumentation. Actually none for practicle purposes. A simple concept might be to cut a slit vertically and install a piece of plexiglass in it. Then just measure the level after marking the visual high https://19216801.onl/ https://routerlogin.uno/ point of the flow with a thin line marker on the outside of the thin plexiglass. The inside of the plexiglass should be flush with the inside of the trough. As you do not want a turburlance effect present there. Careful fitting and a little silicone sealer around the edges of the plexiglass should do it. I doubt anyone could prove you wrong without much more sophistication. You do not have enough inputs to solve this with math. Actually the high point of the flow should be a constant anyways.

Or if the flow rate is low just put dye in the water at some earlier point. It should leave a stain at the high water point.