Public schools at work... - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

blackmercedes · #16 11-24-2002, 01:46 PM

Well, then you spend too much. We spend about $6000 per student, and have one of the highest educated populations on the planet. We have few private schools, and our university system is public. Our graduates are sought the world over. Our public universities are the calibre of the US Ivy league.

We had a woman that was suing the public school system because her 12 year old son couldn't read. She found this out when he was 12? What idiot doesn't know her over-the-age-of-seven son can't read? The school had documented a huge list of things they had tried to do, but her son was learning-disabled, and they needed help from home. For six years they had no response.

Your kids are at school for a few hours every day. They spend the rest of their time somewhere else.

Western culture has become "never look inward." Our lives have become a game of laying blame. We blame welfare for income taxes. We blame public schools for idiots. We blame judges for crime. We blame the health care system for our failing health.

All day long I encounter self-proclaimed pundits claiming to have the solution to the world's ills. They have simplified statements that are meaningless and only scratch the surface. They use the term "accountability" over and over again, and have no real plan for implementing their "solution." They are truly windbags of the highest order, all words and no deeds.

Take public education. If it's broken, then fix it. If it's working, help to improve it. Pulling catch phrases out of the air and diguising them as "debate" is meaningless and a waste of time and energy.

For education researchers, advocates and volunteers, taking one idiotic statistic about one question on one test and proclaiming it the failure of the education system is insulting. For those of us involved in making changes, it is just another rock thown by people in glass houses.

An entire country of arm-chair quarterbacks...

Kuan · #17 11-24-2002, 06:23 PM

Well, what do you mean we don't do anything? Every four years the great state of Minnesota experiences a change in management. In 1998, after years of feel good school policy we created the profile of learning. It was ammended in Y2k to allow independent school districts to design and use their own methods of standardized testing.

Now we have a new governor who has vowed to abolish the profile of learning. A long time opponent of this program, our governor elect has already made it very clear what he thinks of this program. So for many of us who are concerned with the state of education in Minnesota, it's back to square one. The profile wasn't perfect, but it at least gave our schools something to shoot for.

Our schools depend on politicians for funding. Many politicians are in office because they have ties to wealthy groups or individuals who want to see them in office. This also means school policy will be dictated to a certain extent by special interest groups who use school reform as a platform for running for office or as a straw man for some other problem.

One thing we have learned is that there's no sure thing. Everyone who runs for office places education among the top three items that they will address if elected. Our choices are normally limited to higher education, k-12, reform, a promise to not cut funding, or any combination thereoff. It's the same year after year, and people still seem to take the bait on that schpiel. Myself, I've given up on that. I do my part by coaching after school chess.

Kuan

mikemover · #18 11-24-2002, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes

For education researchers, advocates and volunteers, taking one idiotic statistic about one question on one test and proclaiming it the failure of the education system is insulting. For those of us involved in making changes, it is just another rock thown by people in glass houses.

An entire country of arm-chair quarterbacks...

Damn, John...having a bad day?

You're a little more lively than usual!

Statistics exist for a reason...and I could post an endless list of others that point to the same conclusion: Whatever the reason is, our public schools are failing. MUCH of the blame lies with parents, as has been said above. Much of the blame lies with our ridiculous government red tape in the school systems, wasting money and time on endless programs and studies and blah blah blah...most of which accomplish nothing--except wasting moneyand time. Much of the blame lies with teacher's unions, which gives them rights and job security that many of them DO NOT earn! Much of the blame lies with the low pay for teachers...If you pay McDonald's-level salaries, you often get McDonald's-level employees! This is a big part of why most of our government-run agencies in the US suck! Department of Motor Vehicles comes to mind again.... Airport security... Etc.

Privatization ALWAYS improves performance. Privatizing=competition. Competition=incentive to improve. Incentive to improve=better education!

Private schools cannot afford to constantly hemmorhage money and/or poorly-taught students! Our government schools CAN, so they DO!

Students are coming out of our government schools thinking like our government thinks! This should not be a surprise...Catholic schools teach catholicism, Muslim schools teach Islam, computer schools teach computing, Music schools teach music, etc. etc....And government schools teach "GOVERNMENTISM". And we are now reaping the results! Students are lazy, think they are "entitled" to everything, have no respect for others...Sounds a lot like most of our politicians, doesn't it? Hello?

So now we're armchair quarterbacks, John? So since you are in another arena altogether (NOT in the US, which is the school system we are talking about), what does that make YOU for commenting on the subject?

Mike

pentoman · #19 11-24-2002, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 420SEL
Maybe if we're lucky Iraq won't be on any maps this time next year and it won't matter anymore.

tres drole

blackmercedes · #20 11-24-2002, 07:15 PM

There is an attack on education in Alberta. It is designed to create a two tier education system, a lousy one for the "have-nots" and an exceptional one for the "haves."

It begins with a full-voucher system. Well, sounds great. Introduces "choice" into the system. Aha! The heralded "choice" that is supposed to save us all. Well, the story does not end there.

Then, the next step is to introduce standardized testing in all grades. That way, we can rank kids and schools.

Next, we tie school funding to the test scores. Bad scores = less money.

The final step is to tie teacher's salaries to the test scores. Bad scores = less money.

Seems good, eh? We'll finally make those lazy teachers accountable! (you didn't know all teacher's are lazy?)

Well, the full vouchers begin by working their magic. Affluent families have a much greater degree of mobility. They are able to take their kids across town if they want. Poor families have to send their kids to the neighbourhood school. Innocent enough, but let's throw in the other "improvements" we've made.

Standardized teasting. Let's face it, the tests are highly correlated to socio-economic status, and there's no way around that. I worked on a project that measured the statistical accuracy of standardized teating in elementary school aged kids, and we found that a high number of the influencing variables are socio-economic. So, poor kids will get lower scores given the same level of education intervention. Step 2 complete. Back to step 1.

We publish the scores. The parents of children in "average" schools that want their children to do well bundle them up, and take them to schools where the scores are higher. "Choice!" Yippie, we've got choice, the best thing you can do for man-kind.

Well, with those kids gone, the "old" schools test scores fall.

Step 3. We cut their funding. Heck, their kids are doing poorly, they don't need more resources, right?

Step 4. We cut the teacher's salaries at that school. The teachers that are good at what they do, leave. They move to schools with high scores, making more money. Those "dumb" kids don't need exceptional teachers, do they?

Well, that school's scores fall more. Even "average" kids abandon ship. We cut funding even more, and slash salaries.

We just killed a school. For those parents that can't take their children anywhere else, they're stuck. So much for their "choice." But, guess what, you're poor, so who cares? Get a better job, buy a car. It's your "choice" to be poor, and now we're going to make sure your children stay that way.

The final step is look at our now-wrecked school, and declare that public education has failed.

It's on-going here, and the battle is just beginning. Some school boards are now ignoring the test-scores to funding equations, and redestribute funds. Parents are organizing boycotts of standardized testing in the K-6 grades.

The push to declare public education a failure instead of fixing what's wrong with it is a short-sighted outlook that will keep education a privilege instead of a right.

Personal freedom in Western culture is expressed like this:

The freedom to make as much money as you can.

What about looking on freedom as:

To be free from hunger.

To be free to have an education.

We seem to think of freedom as something we're trying to get, instead of something we have.

As to my "action vs. words" comments, Kuan, they're not directed at you. They are directed at those that make proclamations about social issues that they have no idea about. They hear a sound bite on the news, and it becomes their opinion. They don't do research into issues, and they don't understand the complexity of many issues before us. And when they cry and whine about a problem, they take no steps to fix it. Their answers are simplistic, unrealistic, and have no thought behind them.

And Mike, you're right, about my being Canadian. Maybe US schools suck. Maybe US kids are as stupid as some might make them out to be.

That said, maybe the US could learn from us. Private schools in Canada suck. The public system is terrific. Private schools cater to parental whims instead of sound educational principles. The "private" kids excell on standardized tests, 'cause that's all they learn. They are not decision makers, and they don't have the ability to form a thought in their heads. But, hey, betcha they know all the Prime Ministers. I don't. Guess I'm dumb.

Our public system could not possibly be operated for one dollar less by a private company. There is not a red cent available for shareholders. The idea that public services are always inefficient is a false statement. It's something made up. I participated in extensive studies of private vs. public cost-benefit analysis of several public institutions, including public transit. No company wanted to touch it. There was NO room in the system to make a buck.

Here in Alberta, you can take your kid and their voucher to a Charter School, essentially a private school. There are few indeed. They can't figure how to run on the low funding. Our public system is so efficient it's ridiculous.

Does your school baord use decentralized budgetting? If so, go to the school, and help them find all this money that's pouring out the door. If not, go to the board directly, and give them a hand. I'm sure they could use all those wasted dollars for something. Not sure about your hometown, but I've worked on more than a few school budgets, and can't figure out how they do so much on so little.

And again, the broad sweeping meaningless statements...

Kuan · #21 11-24-2002, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikemover
Much of the blame lies with teacher's unions, which gives them rights and job security that many of them DO NOT earn! Much of the blame lies with the low pay for teachers...If you pay McDonald's-level salaries, you often get McDonald's-level employees!

You gotta be kidding Mike. There's NO job security in the teaching profession. Our local district cut 10% of their teaching staff last year. Unions exist to leverage the worker's right to collectively bargain. If not for unions, teachers' salaries would be even lower and we'd really have McDonald's employees teaching our kids.

Quote:

Privatization ALWAYS improves performance. Privatizing=competition. Competition=incentive to improve. Incentive to improve=better education!

How can you say that with the amount of companies failing left and right everyday? Records numbers of companies are filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Take the telephone and utilities industries for example. Since deregulation, when was the last time your baby bell upgraded your phone line?

Quote:

Students are coming out of our government schools thinking like our government thinks! This should not be a surprise...Catholic schools teach catholicism, Muslim schools teach Islam, computer schools teach computing, Music schools teach music, etc. etc....And government schools teach "GOVERNMENTISM".

Did you invent that one Mike? Governmentism? Wouldn't that change depending on who is in charge at the moment?

Quote:

So now we're armchair quarterbacks, John? So since you are in another arena altogether (NOT in the US, which is the school system we are talking about), what does that make YOU for commenting on the subject?

Why not? Like it or not, Canada has much the same problems in their schools we do. Drugs, gang violence, teenage pregnancy, deliquency, etc. John's got a point and if we could check our egos at the keyboard I think it's quite clear. I admit it. I love to armchair quarterback. I do it in many fields. Sometimes I talk too much without doing anything and it takes someone with a level head to put me in my place. I either accept it, change the subject, or do something about it.

Kuan

mikemover · #22 11-24-2002, 07:46 PM

OK, here's some more broad, sweeping, meaningless statements.

Kuan, those businesses fail because they DON'T PERFORM financially or in some cases legally

. You answered your own question. Yes, I made up the word "governmentism"...and no, it doesn't change much, because our government's wasteful, irresponsible and intrusive way of thinking changes very little from one election to the next...

We are not talking about what is working well in Canada. We are talking about what is working well in the US. Private schools are outperforming public schools in the US by a LARGE margin. Period. End of story. FACT. Proven. Demonstrated. Obvious. Not opinion, not a news blurb, not biased statistical analysis, nothing to debate...this is a FACT.

My daughter is a straight-A student, not on Ritalin, never gets into trouble, is an excellent athlete, into music, blah blah blah, and I attribute this to attentive parenting and an excellent PRIVATE SCHOOL. Quite frankly, I bust my a$$ working to send her there, and am very proud of it, and will continue to do so, and have no sympathy for those who want ME to pay for the third-rate education THEIR children are likely to get in a government school.

I've said this before, I'll say it again a thousand times, and you'll call me insensitive, and I'll say, "Yes, I am." : "All men are created equally". What you do with yourself after that is your business. "Haves" and "have nots" are almost ALWAYS where they are as a result of their OWN ACTIONS! Failure is a choice. WORK to send your kids to good schools, or stop complaining about the school YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR being inadequate.

Mike

blackmercedes · #23 11-24-2002, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tkamiya
Having many friends who are teachers and they are good ones AND knowing what they have to put up with personally, I take great offense to some of the comments being made in this thread.

On this board there has been some stereo-typing comments about police, teachers, lawyers, etc.

All police are corrupt, teachers are lazy, and lawyers are crooked.

Didn't 'ja know?

mikemover · #24 11-24-2002, 08:02 PM

Yeah, and don't forget: All politically conservative people are greedy, selfish, insensitive, materialistic bastards!

Mike

mikemover · #25 11-24-2002, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes

Personal freedom in Western culture is expressed like this:

The freedom to make as much money as you can.

What about looking on freedom as:

To be free from hunger.

To be free to have an education.

We seem to think of freedom as something we're trying to get, instead of something we have.

I just remembered that I wanted to comment on this...

The bottom line is: If you make enough MONEY, then hunger, education, housing, clothing, transportation, free time, etc. are NEVER a problem. Ah, capitalism at work...I love it. Imagine that...if you actually WORK, you CAN have a decent life!

I see freedom as the freedom to "get" if you're willing to work, and the freedom to not have it taken from you.

Mike

Kuan · #26 11-24-2002, 09:40 PM

Any business which fails to perform financially will eventually go out of business, of course. But if you think putting tens of thousands of people out of a job, or wiping whole towns of the map, or misappropriating tens of thousands of dollars from each employee's retirement savings, or the deliberate misleading of shareholders AND the often forgotten stakeholders an improvement in the overall lives of people then yeah, sure, by that definition privatization will always be better.

So what do you want to do, privatize schools and have the school board spend every session trying to increase shareholder value? Do you really want schools trying to please the path of most cash or do you really want them to be genuinely interested in the education of your child? Do you want schools starting a pricewar over the cost of education? Do you want a Brady Catholic School credit card which gives you 10 points for every dollar you spend, redeemable at the school cafeteria?

You know, private schools are not without their problems. One of main concerns is grade inflation. Although SAT scores have risen, grades of incoming freshman seem to have increased disproportionately with respect to SAT scores. This is especially noticeable in private colleges and universities which receive a lower level of scrutiny than public institutions of higher learning. It's not known whether the trend started at the top or at the kindergarten level, but like it or not, it's there, and it's disturbing.

At one stage in my life I thought that schools should be run as businesses. But that's the very thing which got us into trouble in the first place. Schools should be places of learning, not fundraising think tanks. Now that I think about it, vouchers may not be the answer after all. Well, maybe, since we have busses here and enrollment is a factor in determining funding.

Kuan

blackmercedes · #27 11-24-2002, 10:29 PM

Well, private schooling does have one advantage:

All those lazy stupid people that choose to be poor can have rotten schools. People like my grandfather that barely spoke english and the highest paying job he had was a janitor. His sons went to excellent public schools, and all became well educated individuals.

This notion that people that make little money are lazy comes from where? My grandfather never made a decent amount of money in his whole life. But, he worked like an elephant every day of his life. Oh, I know, he should have worked smarter, or something like that. The reality was that he never had much of a chance for education or anything like it, but his children did.

The next notion that he was a failure disturbs me. He was not. He worked hard for very little, but was an honest man that would do anything for someone. Though he had nothing, he would hold out his hand to someone with less. Just because he didn't make more and more money didn't make him a failure to anyone.

There is one assumption that keeps coming back: All people must choose to trade their skills for more and more money, and those who don't are not properly functioning members of society.

Some people can't earn much more money for one reason or another. This does not make them less of a person than anyone else.

Have we come to the point where we respect and admire people based only on their net worth or possessions? Do we deny some children a good education because their parents earn little money? In Mike's world, yes.

mikemover · #28 11-25-2002, 09:35 AM

blackmercedes,

OK, John....You've firmly established that you're the most kind and charitable and selfless person among us, and we're all very impressed, so why don't YOU spend all of YOUR money educating the "less fortunate" masses?! I have bills.

Mike

blackmercedes · #29 11-25-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikemover
...OK, John....You've firmly established that you're the most kind and charitable and selfless person among us...

I never said that.

It just bothers me that those who complain the loudest are invariably those who do the least to make change. And the generalizations suck too. All unionized employees coast along for a living. All teachers are lazy. All public schools are bad.

And I never generalized that all politically conservative people are "greedy, selfish, insensitive, materialistic bastards." I don't remember associating the two. No matter your political affiliation, if you fall into the latter category, then I probably oppose your point of view.

And I am not the most selfless. I can't remember claiming that title. I could and should do more. But, you won't catch me whining about something and not doing something about it.

If my tone has changed of late, it's 'cause as the year draws to a close, I realize another year of "left bashing" is coming to a close, and a new one is about to begin anew. January brings cold and low crime rates. The press will begin it's annual "slow news day" headlines shouting about some societal problem, and how the "business solution" is the key.

Some kid will wander off in the extreme cold, and Child Services will be attacked for not foreseeing that some mother would not take care of her child. Even though she was never "in the system" to begin with. We'll bash some Social Workers, talking about the poor job they all do. After all, they're protected by a union! Someone with a Master's degree making $20K with a huge caseload. Glad someone cares enough to do the job...

Some teen will fail an exam and blame his teachers going all the way back to kindergarten. Teacher bashing is practically a sport in Alberta, with extensive television coverage. And we wonder why enrollment in the Education Schools is down...

We'll have the Premier of Alberta visit a men's homeless shelter in the middle of the night, drunk. He'll throw change at the men, and yell at them to "get a job." (He did this, and I'm sure he'll do it again) His spin doctors will work the press, and suddenly it's a heroic act...

Ah, January. Can't wait...

Kuan · #30 11-25-2002, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikemover
why don't YOU spend all of YOUR money educating the "less fortunate" masses?!

You don't have to spend any money. Get involved in programs in your neighbourhood. Go help some old lady paint her house, put up some drywall at a Habitat for Humanity site. There's a cooking school welfare to work program across town where I teach class one day a month. You know, it's hard to believe, but there are many people who grew up in a world totally different from ours. Things which seem natural to you and I are totally foreign to them. I'm not talking about new immigrants, I'm talking about people who grew up in that neighbourhood we all try to avoid. Here we like to call it a "dark" neighbourhood. Oh nooo... don't go there. We don't go there, they don't come over here. One wonders why we don't understand each other.

Anyway, among the things they learn are interviewing skills, personal grooming and hygiene, telephone etiquette, and how to use a fork and knife. No kidding, some of them have a better idea how to address a policeman than their a coworker.

Well back to where I first started this post. You really don't have to spend any of your money to help someone less fortunate than yourself. If you want to get involved in the lives of young people, do some after school programs. I'm very proud of my chess kids. We have the top ranked kindergarten player in the state. My girls' soccer team took second place this summer at an invitational tournament, ended up second in their league, and were playoff runnerups. It's real rewarding, even more rewarding when we win. Rewarding even if I don't get paid for it.

Kuan