Public schools at work... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mikemover · #31 11-25-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuan

...You really don't have to spend any of your money to help someone less fortunate than yourself. If you want to get involved in the lives of young people, do some after school programs. I'm very proud of my chess kids. We have the top ranked kindergarten player in the state. My girls' soccer team took second place this summer at an invitational tournament, ended up second in their league, and were playoff runnerups. It's real rewarding, even more rewarding when we win. Rewarding even if I don't get paid for it.

Kuan

I have MUCH, MUCH respect for that Kuan, because you VOLUNTEER to do what you are doing, expecting nothing in return, and that IS charity and that is HIGHLY admirable.

It's when it is legislated and forced upon people that it ceases to be charity and ceases to be honorable.

Blackmercedes,

You and I obviously will never see eye to eye on much of anything other than Mercedes, but I enjoy debating and/or discussing all of these varied subjects with you, and everyone else here. Is the act of pointing out that there is a problem in the first place, spreading the word, and encouraging others to be aware, to think about it, to talk about it, proposing possible solutions, asking for ideas/opinions, etc...is that not DOING SOMETHING? Being AWARE that there is a problem is the first and often the largest step towards solving it. I always refrain from commenting on what other members may or may not be "doing" about something, because I have no knowledge of that...You may want to consider that as well.

Mike

blackmercedes · #32 11-25-2002, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikemover
...I always refrain from commenting on what other members may or may not be "doing" about something, because I have no knowledge of that...You may want to consider that as well.

Mike

It's okay to catagorize all poor people as lazy morons who are simply incapable of getting out of bed early enough to get a real job. It's okay to generalize that teachers are somehow incompetant and have contributed to the ruination of the public school system. It's okay to state that all "left-leaning" persons somehow have no idea of how the world does, or should, work.

But, it's not okay to characterize libertarian individuals as unwilling to lend a hand to someone that needs it without any reward to themselves.

I am simply talking about my very own experiences. In my years of volunteer work through many agencies, I have yet to come across someone with as radical a viewpoint that is willing to put in "unrewarded" effort. Hundreds of people...

I am generalizing, stereo-typing, and making assumptions. Kinda like many of our topics as of late.

chowpit · #33 11-25-2002, 10:34 PM

My two cents:

Public schools merely beat you into conformity. I witnessed several kids during my school years get into trouble because their above average intelligence was not recognized and they often were in trouble because of boredom.

In the county I live we have "magnet" schools that are supposed to have higher than average learning. Problem is that they are located in bad neighborhoods.
Want to stimulate real estate in our county? Re-zone the school districts and watch the "HOME FOR SALE" signs pop up.

I'm all for school vouchers. Since we don't have kids I want a voucher that will get my damn money back! I could use it in other places.

mikemover · #34 11-25-2002, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
It's okay to catagorize all poor people as lazy morons who are simply incapable of getting out of bed early enough to get a real job. It's okay to generalize that teachers are somehow incompetant and have contributed to the ruination of the public school system. It's okay to state that all "left-leaning" persons somehow have no idea of how the world does, or should, work.

I don't recall ever saying "ALL" in ANY of my posts....

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes

I am simply talking about my very own experiences.

And so am I...

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
In my years of volunteer work through many agencies, I have yet to come across someone with as radical a viewpoint that is willing to put in "unrewarded" effort. Hundreds of people...

Then obviously you have yet to come across me...I have done many things in my life for which my only reward was feeling good about myself, and that was more than enough.

Also, it's often the people with so-called "radical" viewpoints that end up making real changes in the world..."Middle-of-the-road" does not often make much of a mark.

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
I am generalizing, stereo-typing, and making assumptions. Kinda like many of our topics as of late.

I have found that generalizations and/or stereotypes, good and bad, no matter how exaggerated, or what group of people they are about, always can be traced back to some grain of truth--They didn't just appear out of thin air one day! That does NOT mean that every individual will, OR should, OR should not...adhere to them, perpetuate them, be offended by them, or work to change them. But the seed of it was planted somewhere, by someone or some group, or the stereotype would not exist in the first place. I just make sure I'm aware of it, and that I know the roots of it, and decide what path to choose for MYSELF, without being influenced by how someone else may or may not "stereotype" me.

Mike

mikemover · #35 11-26-2002, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chowpit
My two cents:

Public schools merely beat you into conformity.

Glad to hear somebody's aware of it!

Many public school "victims" have been so misled, and they have no idea...

Quote:

Originally posted by chowpit
I'm all for school vouchers. Since we don't have kids I want a voucher that will get my damn money back! I could use it in other places.

Sucks paying for something you don't use, doesn't it?

Mike

mikemover · #36 11-29-2002, 03:34 PM

Further evidence....the public proves my point!

ENROLLMENT UP IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS
At least that’s the way it is in Atlanta. What good news! In the Atlanta area enrollment in private schools is up 70% while enrollment in government schools is up 44%.

How long is it going to be before Georgia teacher's unions demand steps like those taken by California and Michigan to keep these kids in government schools? By the way, our new Governor says he really isn't interested in school vouchers or school choice. He saw what happened to Roy Barnes.

Mike

blackmercedes · #37 11-29-2002, 05:51 PM

Well, I don't understand a few things:

1. You believe strongly that people that don't jump out of bed in the morning and set their day's objective as to make more money are failures. But, when a teacher joins a union to give them collective bargaining in an effort to make more money, then they are greedy.

2. Stereo-types are rooted in fact? Oh boy. I guess my dear friend Kuan is good at math and is a bad driver. Stereo-types are not fact. Otherwise they would be called just so. They are born out of ignorance and fear. People make things up about other groups to make themselves feel stronger.

The stereo-types presented in these threads are hurtful to a great number of people. Normally, I recieve hate mail in the form of "you commine pinko, move to China" and the such. The off-forum mail I have got on this thread has a different theme: people are hurt. Our nations have hundreds of thousands of low paid hard working teachers that are highly dedicated to their students.

One fellow mentioned in his post that he found the off-the-cuff and less-than-well-thought-out comments about teachers hurtful. Of course, people blithely ignored his comments, and simply continued teacher/education bashing.

The thing I have noticed on these recent "debate" threads is that they are not debates. They are all negative in manner, and usually designed to be an attack on a group of people. Take this one, for instance.

I get the feeling that there is a group of posters that are simply corroded by envy and hate. They never see the people for being just that: people.

I cannot see how it is possible to be so motivated by money, and not feel terrible amounts of envy for those that have it. Worse is the resentment for those that didn't "earn" it. Heaven forbid that someone had an "unfair" advantage. Also, the level of avarice is startling. "I earned it, and taking any one bit of it back is wrong." I cannot see how any people in western capitalist society could have earned so much without the incredible infrastructure that we have built. No one person was completely and utterly responsible for their own success.

We don't think of people on welfare as people. They are stereo-typed. They are all failures that do nothing but live their lives as sponges off the hard working people. People that earn minimum wage don't work hard. They just need to stop being so damned lazy and get better jobs. Teachers are unionized employees that work from 9-3 and choose their profession so they could sponge off the rest of us. In fact, anyone that works in public service is a sponge, taking our "hard-earned" money.

The hate toward groups of people is very disturbing. It seems to me that the prevailing method of "debate" is to run down groups of people in an effort to somehow make ourselves feel taller, stronger. in the last few months we have beaten on all welfare recepients, teachers, police, and anyone that dares to oppose war.

I have yet to see anything that resembles a contructive discussion. For this thread, I jumped in and stereo-typed and bashed away. My experiment proved correct. It did nothing to make people think.

The only thing that I have come away with is a sound knowledge that there are people who are close-minded and intolerant, and in instances, just plain hateful.

"Having many friends who are teachers and they are good ones AND knowing what they have to put up with personally, I take great offense to some of the comments being made in this thread." (my emphasis)

Had anyone said this about something I said, I take notice. It was said much earlier, and everyone has choosen to ignore it.

#38 11-29-2002, 08:07 PM

The two most noble professions, in my humble opinion:

1 teachers
2 nurses

Both are selfless and charitible at heart.

Just my .02

mikemover · #39 11-30-2002, 07:30 PM

John,

I repeat: I never said "ALL", and I never said "Teachers are greedy". Unions are becoming archaic, and instead of serving their intended purpose, they are now more often used (abused) to "prop up" salaries and benefits and security for MANY workers who don't deserve it. Note that I did NOT say "ALL". I'm sure some do.

If you want a "good, clean debate" as you keep whining about, then stop putting words in my mouth.

And yes, the root of most stereotypes STARTED with some factual basis...Research it. I never said they were GOOD, I never said I LIKE them or AGREE with them, because I do not. I simply pointed out a FACT that you obviously do not like.

Mike

Kuan · #40 12-01-2002, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikemover
I have found that generalizations and/or stereotypes, good and bad, no matter how exaggerated, or what group of people they are about, always can be traced back to some grain of truth--They didn't just appear out of thin air one day!

What? There are no good stereotypes, and no stereotypes have as their origin any truth either. Stereotypes exist only because people tend to already hold a misguided notion of what things are. Nobody will point out that all Asian kids can do math like crazy unless you view Asians as different already. What about the group of students who are in 98th percentile of their class who aren't Asian? They sure stand out don't they?

Kuan

leathermang · #41 12-01-2002, 08:26 PM

I think chess should be mandatory in elementary school... there are lots of studies that show it is good for mental developement....

"And yes, the root of most stereotypes STARTED with some factual basis...Research it." --mikemover

This statement is true....

mikemover · #42 12-01-2002, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuan
What? There are no good stereotypes, and no stereotypes have as their origin any truth either. Kuan

Stereotypes:

In an earlier post someone said, "Most teachers and nurses are charitable at heart"--A GOOD stereotype, and usually true. It's the bad apples that spoil the bunch, isn't it?

More:

White people can't dance--True for the most part, and funny!

Libertarians favor smaller government--True, and another GOOD stereotype!

Democrats do not want to lower taxes--True, NOT good!

Most black people enjoy hip-hop and R&B music--True, and good!

Most Japanese people enjoy sushi--True, and good!

People who live in "urban" areas tend to be more politically liberal--True.

People who live in "rural" areas tend to be more politically conservative--True.

People in the Midwest tend to buy American-built cars--True.

blah, blah, blah....

Stereotypes CAN, and usually DO have SOME basis in truth! Not all stereotypes are exaggerated or bad, and there are exceptions to EVERY stereotype, good or bad! Some are offensive to some people, some are not. Some are unfortunately used as insults, which is bad...Others are benign or even GOOD, such as the last one above, about American cars--That group of people is supporting their local and national economy, and that is NOT a bad stereotype, is it?!

Mike

anthonyb · #43 12-03-2002, 12:40 AM

People who drive Mercedes Benzes are rich.
Mechanics are cheats.
Black people like fried chicken.
Women are bad drivers.
Texans like country music.
Welfare recipients are lazy.
Christians are self-righteous.
Gay men get AIDS.
White people are racist.
Asians know kung-fu.
Yale students come from wealthy families.
Arabs wear turbans.

The problem with stereotypes is that they oversimplify the situation, and leave out the bigger picture. All of the above examples had some basis in truth somewhere, at some point in time, but to say they are representative of anything would be grossly inaccurate.

It's bad enough to use stereotypes to make personal decisions and choices, but it's even worse when they are used to justify economic, hiring, or public policy decisions. It's unfortunate (or tragic, depending on the situation) when they are used without reference to personal experience, like racial prejudices handed down from generation to generation.

Quote:

What about Asians owning laundries?

For what it's worth, I'm Chinese-American. Out of all the people I know and have met over the years (including immediate and extended family, personal friends, various years of education and work, and in the greater Asian American communities I've been exposed to), not one person has owned a laundry.

I have, however, met Asians who are:

musicians/artists, teachers/professors, aerospace engineers, real estate agents, elected officials, lawyers, doctors, dentists, small business owners (not laundries), chefs, lobbyists, bureacrats, accountants, investment bankers, merchandisers, and newspaper reporters, to name a few.

-anthony

btw - The stereotype of Asians owning laundries isn't bad because owning a laundry is a bad thing. It's because it's associated with (and originated from) a period in America where Chinese Americans could not own land, vote, immigrate, become citizens, or hold a number of occupations. Instead, many Chinese became servants, working as cooks, coolies, and ... laundrymen.

Stereotypes aren't offensive necessarily because of what they literally mean. It's what they imply, and the mental image they bring up, that makes them repulsive to certain people.

Kuan · #44 12-03-2002, 11:36 AM

What do you mean there are good stereotypes? What happens to the person who doesn't fit the "good" stereotype? What if you were Asian and can't do math? (like me) or what if you were Ukrainian and couldn't play chess?

How about "positive" stereotypes which look like compliments. I hear it all the time that Asians are naturally hardworking. This totally discredits their abilities and efforts. It makes it seem like it doesn't count that you're hardworking if you're Asian.

And no, stereotypes do NOT have as their origin any shred of truth. The statement "Johnny can't jump" is true only in Johnny's case. What that has to do with "white men can't jump" is beyond me. The generalization that white men can't jump does not follow from the obviously true statement the Johnny can't jump. The conclusion one reaches comes from some other place.

Kuan

G-Benz · #45 12-03-2002, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by anthonyb
People who drive Mercedes Benzes are rich.
Mechanics are cheats.
Black people like fried chicken.
Women are bad drivers.
Texans like country music.
Welfare recipients are lazy.
Christians are self-righteous.
Gay men get AIDS.
White people are racist.
Asians know kung-fu.
Yale students come from wealthy families.
Arabs wear turbans.

"Mechanics are cheats." - People generally distrust individuals skilled at troubleshooting something they cannot understand. So why don't doctors fall under the same category? As complicated as the human body is, most laymen would scoff at a doctor that would check out your ailment and then suggest the replacement of several organs as a cure. Maybe if there was a Hippocratic oath for mechanics, this stereotype would never have flourished.

"Black people like fried chicken." - This is not a stereotype, this is FACT!" Any African-American (vegetarians excluded) that does not like fried chicken should consider checking off one of the other boxes when asked "race or national origin"

"Women are bad drivers." - This one's easy. It was assumed that women (particularly housewives, venturing out for the first time) were less experienced behind the wheel. Many were. But if that were really true, why do guys pay more for auto insurance?

"Texans like country music." - Texans like rap music...end of story.

"Welfare recipients are lazy." - Like any program that doles out financial assistance, there will be those that abuse the system and milk it for what it's worth. Unfortunately, I know more welfare recipients who are "lazy" than those that really have a need. What really happens, is that many have supported a lifestyle that spiraled into ultimately becoming "welfare-bound". And that stems from the values that were instilled by their elders...if there were any around in their youth.

I'll skip a few others but before we consider that
"White people are racists", know that human nature has an evil way of making a contiguous group begin to categorize others that do not fit this norm, and serve to exclude them. If there were no white people in the world today, there would surely be some other ethnic group that would pick up the slack! Asians would mistrust Indian, or Africans would mistrust Mongolians, etc. etc.

How did we get so far off topic?