Possible reason why japanese cars are so reliable... - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

#16 05-14-2003, 12:39 AM

I want a little of both. Cars are expensive, and I want it to be reliable. I would rather be wrenching for fun than because I have to.

I don't like the Accord or Camry due to the dull factor. I do want the car to be a pleasure to be in. I had a Toyota Corolla a few months ago as a rental while the Saturn was in the shop. Good car, but nothing about it made me want to own one. BLAND!!

I love my Dodge truck. I kept the vehicle simple, and it's payed off very well in the reliability department. I love the power, sound, and solidity of this truck. I love the VUE as it's comfortable, quiet, roomy, and looks great. I like the CVT transmission and how the car feels on hilly roads. I like my ancient Mercedes because there is nothing "normal" about this car when compared to what we drive today. Everthing in this cars operation, sounds, and looks is a conversation piece. You are very involved in the driving experience in the 59 Benz. The Euro Benz is just plain cool. It looks a little different from the others on the road, feels different when being driven, and makes for more good conversation when talking about this cars variations from US models. Mine even has the original owners manual - in German!

So far, all of the issues I've found with the 84 204D are minor, and I will be getting every one of them answered to before doing any real driving to the car. Once it's back up to snuff, I do expect it to be capable of taking it on a long distance road trip, and getting me back.

The Warden · #17 05-14-2003, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackmercedes
They want their car to start everyday, get them to where they are going, and not require tons of repairs. They want cheap tires and low maintenace schedules.

Maybe the newer Benzes are different, but what you described is what I get out of my 123. The only serious work I've needed to do to this car are the rear axleshafts (I think 230K miles out of a set of CV joints is respectable out of any vehicle), the front wheel bearings (again, I think 230K miles is respectable), and the brakes (which is normal maintenance for any car). From the records that I have on the car (the time I've had it, plus the time between the original purchase of the car and 197K miles), the only things other than routine maintenance that's been done was a couple of water pumps, a brake master cylinder, and an engine mount. The interior leaves a bit to be desired, and I still need to replace the guide rod mounts (doesn't affect driveability, just makes the ride a bit less comfortable), but the car is in great shape overall, at almost 240K miles. Everything except the cruise control works properly, the tranny shifts well, the engine runs like new, and again, other than the guide rod mounts and the cruise control, I have nothing to complain about on this car. I wouldn't have any qualms (other than paying for the fuel to do it; I'm a broke college student) about jumping into the car tomorrow and driving it to New York and back.

Is a Honda or a Toyota just as reliable? Maybe; I don't know. From the way people talk about them, you would think that if you welded the hood shut and welded the wheels to the brake discs, the cars would still go 500K miles. I don't believe for a second that that's possible (although I'm half tempted to try it when my mom replaces her Pontiac with a Jap car), but even if it were, I still have serious misgivings about giving money to a nation who happily sells us their goods while not allowing us to sel our goods to them (with few exceptions). I'm sure that others will disagree, but I for one think that a trade that's that imbalanced is unhealthy, and I am not willing to contribute to it.

Some may think that that's just jingoistic American talk, and maybe it is to a degree, but I'm not the type to refuse to buy anything that's not American-made (owning a Benz makes that impossible unto itself)...

In addition to the previous arguements, I will admit that I have yet to find a Japanese car that I can comfortably fit into (and I'm "only" 6'0"), and every one that I've driven is underpowered...my 300D can leave a Corolla in the dust, and probably gets the same fuel mileage (on a cheaper fuel) doing it, and is also better for the environment. So there.

{to qualify the environment statement, look at the "Why Are Diesels Better?" link in my signature}

Okay, end rant...and flame suit is on

G-Benz · #18 05-14-2003, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Warden
...my 300D can leave a Corolla in the dust, and probably gets the same fuel mileage

Oh yeah? Wait until I get my "fart can" muffler and F-15 spoiler. Oh yeah, and the "stickers"!!!

(quote from Corolla "ricer" owner)

jsmith · #19 05-14-2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smalltime
I cannot believe that no one has mentioned Dr. Deming. Dr. W. Edwards Deming is without a doubt, the leading catalyst behind the increased quality of Japanese Automobiles and Electronics since WWII. When Detroit said no to Dr. Deming, because they thought they had a captive audience, Japan gave a resounding YES.

Look it up.

Steve

I did allude to the quality methodologies without naming Dr. Demming. I worked in a company that tried to embrace Total Quality Management and we had to digest all of the Demming stuff. We in the IT community found that there was a lot of overlap with systems methodologies and TQM was ultimately redundant and produced more work than necessary.

I remember the case study where the methodology was applied to the problem of Bank ATM's going down during specific times of the day. All the problem solving techniques and diagrams were done and at the end of it all, it was determined that the machine was running out of paper because the rolls being used where too short! Yeah, you really need a whole methodology to figure out that the machine ran out of paper all the time!

ericnguyen · #20 05-30-2003, 05:43 AM

I really like Blackmercedes' very educated comments about Japanese cars. I'd like to have some other comments.

1) If MB sells one million cars per year in the US (just like the Japanese cars), the number of complaints about their recent cars' reliability will be innumerable. I believe MB can only sell less than 30,000 cars in the US per year (fix me if I'm wrong).

2) The Warden's comparison of a 300D and a Toyota Corolla is completely nonsense. If a new 300D were made these days, it would be almost 3 times more expensive than a barebone Corolla! You must compare your 300D to a Camry or better an Accord. If you drive a new Accord or Camry with a V6, it must be definitely much more powerful than your 300D.

3) We want to praise a company for its ability to constantly improve its products' quality and reliability over the years, and we'd look down upon a company which was once a car pioneer, a highly respected symbol of superb quality and reliabity, but is now a frequent "generator" of terrible but very expensive lemons.

4) Some people have kept praising MB for being "the first" in many car innovations, such as the recent announcement of their new 7 speed auto transmission. However, as M.B. Doc said, MB should better try to improve their current product designs instead of keeping to create new ones just to attract attention.

5) If people want to compare cars from different manufacturers, they should not keep referring to 15-20 years cars (at which time MB was famous for its cars' reliability and quality). Why don't they just compare a modern Accord V6 to a MB c280, for example?

6) Diesel Power said "I don't like the Accord or Camry due to the dull factor...." You know why? Because there are too few MB cars while Accord and Camry are galore! If you could see similar numbers of MB cars on roads, you would feel your MB cars as dull stuff too.

Just my 2 cents.

Eric

Flash Gordon · #21 05-30-2003, 08:19 AM

The problem with the MB company is that they are selling their cars even with the numerous problems. Therefore, to fix the quality/reliability issues are not a priority. I am sure they feel that as long as suckers, oops, people are buying, these is no reason to fix anything! Keep on inventing the gadgets and sell them. My car was in the shop 4 times in less than 4K miles

I feel that just because you own a MB, does'nt mean you have to bury your head in the sand

blackmercedes · #22 05-30-2003, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnguyen
I really like Blackmercedes' very educated comments about Japanese cars. I'd like to have some other comments.

Thanks! I'd like to expand on some of your excellent thoughts...

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnguyen
...2) The Warden's comparison of a 300D and a Toyota Corolla is completely nonsense. If a new 300D were made these days, it would be almost 3 times more expensive than a barebone Corolla! You must compare your 300D to a Camry or better an Accord. If you drive a new Accord or Camry with a V6, it must be definitely much more powerful than your 300D.

This is very true. It's an apples to oranges kind of comparision. Also, has anyone driven a new Corolla? My wife had her Subie in the dealer (routine, not one non-routine visit yet...) and the "multi" dealer gave her a 2003 Corolla for a loaner. This car is pretty "dull" in that it has exceptional fit and finish with the exterior finish noticably BETTER than my C230. The panel gaps and paint finish are amazing for a $22,000CDN car.

Next, the interior. This car was a loaded LE and had leather, etc. Without the typical mouse-fur upholstery, the interior came to life. The plastics used in the dash and so on were very good, and amazing considering the price. The car had 51,000km's on it and had not a single squeak or groan. Econo-box?

Driving? Well, I think the well-under-3000lb curb weight and 130hp would allow it to keep up with any of the W123 diesel cars, regardless or turbo or non-turbo. I know that my 150hp 3300lb C230 can dust a W123 300D turbo (done on a few occasions while attending MBCA driving events) and I think the Corolla could do the same.

Handling? Yuck. The FWD chassis is tuned for understeer and a compliant ride. The shock quality is nowhere near as good as my C230, as it sacrifices handling for ride. My C230 has hideously expensive Bilstein AMG shocks, and it shows. Same for chassis "set-up." Now, most folks wouldn't know what to do with a well balanced chassis if it bit them on the ass. So, the Corolla is not designed for the 10% of drivers (or less) that appreciate such things. It's built for the 90% plus that just want it to scrub off speed if they overcook it a bit. And the body motions just serve as a reminder than they're going a little quicker, and most folks don't care about that, either.

But, get to an apples-apples comparision, and the Japanese makes are coming on hard. The "new" Infinity is dropping all FWD products. The G35 is a soaring success. My wife and I considered a G35 coupe. Wow. No deals there! Meanwhile, our dealer has subvented leases on most models of MB's. Hhhhmm. I can get a 280hp 6 speed coupe with 18" wheels and giant Brembo brakes, leather, Nav, etc. for just over $50KCDN, and that is a down payment on a CLK320? Heck, I can't get a plain-jane C320 sedan for that!

If I replaced my C230 today, MB wouldn't even be on my shopping list. Check my sig, and you'll see that I'm a serious MB fan, but they're just moving away from the core MB values that I like. So, if they want to compete directly with Infinity and Lexus, fine. But that is not a game they seem to be winning.

ericnguyen · #23 05-30-2003, 05:16 PM

Yes I've also heard that the Japanese are among the most racist people on the earth, but such a statement is actually dependent upon the culture and nationality of an observer. Some of my white Americans said the Japanese are very racist, but some of my Asian friends and one of my brothers-in-laws (he graduated from MIT and went on to work for some Lucent subsidiary in Tokyo) said they don't believe the Japanese are no more racist than many other people.

Well, the Japanese people have the full right to be proud of their nation and wealth. Their population (~ 120 M) is less than half of the US population (~ 270 M), but their nation held the title of being a country with the biggest GNP (gross national product) for one or two years while holding the second rank behind the US for the other years. Even though their economy has been in recession during the last decade until now, they still hold the world's #2 rank in GNP.

Their consumer products (like TV, radio, CD/DVD, camera, camcorder, motorcycle, automobile etc.) are extremely well made, very popular and preferred by most people. While the US is the best in computer software and hardware engineering, no other nation can compete with Japan in terms of consumer electronics household products.

They may not be creative innovators, but they excel in making high quality products and constantly improving them to the best of their ability. They are very detail-oriented in their products, and efficient in their management, manufacturing and marketing.

Germany was the best of the world in chemical and mechanical industries before the WW II, but they can no longer claim to hold these 2 titles nowadays. However, their fundamental research and science advancements are even on par with those of the US.

Just my $0.02

Eric

blackmercedes · #24 05-30-2003, 06:11 PM

Whay is your definition of innovation? I agree that they don't "invent" the world as we see it, but they are a creative people, expressed in a different way.

Explain that? Well, they have pioneered manufacturing techniques that have allowed them to build $20K cars with better quality than other's $100K cars. They have refined engine design to the point where they can build motorcycle engines that have ridiculous hp:displacement ratios, but last as long as recent car engines.

The other thing they know better than any other nation is their limitations. How do they cope with styling issues? They employ US designers and build design centres right in the US.

Would you say the Japanese are creative problem solvers when it comes to business? You bet! The Japanese motorcycle market was restricted by a Reagan issued tariff on 700+cc motorcycles. This was to allow Harley to flourish. The real reason HD flourished was the repurchase of the company away from AMF, but some might claim it was intervention in the market.

Well, Honda et al didn't break stride. 750's became 700's and engines got more powerful despite drops in cc's. They rolled out better breathing and better fuel systems. They still sold litre-class bikes, but built them with innovative features and made them stand out depite higher pricing. HD did well, but Honda retained nearly 50% of the motorcycle market in the US.

Toyota and Honda saw the future early, and built high capacity manufacturing plants in the US and Canada. This was a premptive strike against future trade difficulties, and to lower costs overall. Smart cookies.

I would think that if Japan had not become consumed in a real estate false economy in the late '80's and early '90's, they would have had a good shot at being [the dominant economic player in 2003. The US's struggle to recover from the Ponzi Scheme known as the "Tech Boom" might give Japan the edge they need. It will be interesting to see.

If US business underestimates the Japanese, they will be sorry. GM has watched their market share drop from nearly 50% to 27% in the last 25 years. Who took it? Chrysler? (Hint: starts with an "H" and a "T")

The Warden · #25 05-30-2003, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ericnguyen
2) The Warden's comparison of a 300D and a Toyota Corolla is completely nonsense. If a new 300D were made these days, it would be almost 3 times more expensive than a barebone Corolla! You must compare your 300D to a Camry or better an Accord. If you drive a new Accord or Camry with a V6, it must be definitely much more powerful than your 300D.

Sorry, I should have qualified that statement better. I was not attempting to make a new vehicle-to-new vehicle comparison. I was specifically comparing my '85 300D and my aunt's '94 Geo Prizm (essentially a re-badged Corolla). A Corolla (or even a 4 cylinder Camry from that era) goes for roughly the same price as a 123 diesel (I paid $2000 for mine). Would a new 123 in '85 cost a lot more than a new Toyota would in '94? Of course it would (I'm not that stupid contrary to popular belief

), but I'm looking at what the same amount of $$ would get you right now, in 2003. For $3000, you could get a early to mid '90's Corolla or Camry 4cyl, or you could get a 123 diesel. It is my opinion that an OM617 turbo has more acceleration capabilities than an early to mid '90's Toyota 4 cylinder, the two engines get roughly the same fuel mileage, and that the OM617 is more robust, can handle more abuse, and is more reliable as a whole. In addition, I find the 123's interior to be far more comfortable (in spite of the fact that I detest leather and that these seats need a lot of work, I find them immeasurably more comfortable than even a new Jap car), and except for the dent that the previous owner of my car put in the left rear quarter, the fit and finish on my car is just fine.

Between the fact that the 617 is more robust, the fact that at least on the 123, M-B made the vehicle easy to work on (an easy-to-work-on front wheel drive vehicle is something I'd need to see to believe), and that the lack of computer controls makes it possible for one to do his/her own work on a 123 (even on the engine), I firmly believe that a 123 is more economical to own. In addition, I would prefer to be in a 123 in an accident than any Jap vehicle, old or new. In spite of the lack of airbags, I feel far safer in my car.

I actually doubt that the same is true of newer M-B's (the computer controls alone shoot the able-to-work-on part down), but it seems as if there are those in this thread who are trying to say that all M-B's are junk compared to the new Jap cars. I have to ask, though. If there are people on here who truly believe that, why do they even have an M-B?

Lastly, here's a more "realistic" comparison.

This time, I won't even try to use an M-B, but I will show a common-place Jap car, along with a similar alternative, specifically a Honda Accord and a Volkwagen Jetta. I did a build and price comparison, using a Jetta GL (their base model) and an Accord LX (second to base model; looks to have the same options as the base Jetta). The Accord has a 160hp 2.4l 4 cylinder gas engine, while the Jetta has a 90hp 1.9l 4 cylinder turbocharged diesel engine. Both have a 5 speed manual tranny, and roughly the same interior options. The prices actually put the Jetta slightly ahead, with the Jetta coming to $19,065 and the Accord coming to $19,660. The Accord gives you 26mpg in the city with 34mpg on the highway (hey, the 26mpg is slightly less than I get with my 300D!

) while the Jetta gives you 42mpg in the city and 49mpg on the highway (BTW, that actually came from Honda's page, including the TDi fuel mileage figures and the price). To my knowledge, the new Jettas don't have any reliability issues, so unless it can be successfully demonstrated that the Jetta isn't a reliable vehicle, I don't think that any statements saying something to the effect of "It's a Honda; there's no comparison" is fair in this instance. THe '03 Jettas that I've sat in (the one I test-drove as wella s ones at auto shows) looked to have good fit and finish, and the interior didn't look or feel cheap (a complaint that I've had with most Jap vehicles, along with GM vehicles).

Some may say that that is an unfair test because I chose the TDI for the Jetta's engine, but I chose to go with what I would pick for options in either vehicle (same reason why I picked a base model; I would have picked the base model Accord as well except that, according to Honda's page, the base-level Accord didn't come with air conditioning). If Honda offered a diesel Accord, I would have selected that, but they don't, so shame on them.

Regarding power, I don't know how a new Accord drives, but I've driven a Jetta TDi with a 5 speed, and it'll outrun my mom's old '94 Pontiac V-6. To me, for a vehicle that can get almost 50 mpg on commonly-known technology, that's very respectable. If I were to buy a new car (operative word: "car" as my first new vehicle will probably be a truck to complement my F-250, years down the road

), it would likely be a Jetta TDi, unless the new M-B 270CDi proves itself or the Chrysler Pacifica becomes available with a diesel.

blackmercedes · #26 05-30-2003, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Warden

To my knowledge, the new Jettas don't have any reliability issues, so unless it can be successfully demonstrated that the Jetta isn't a reliable vehicle, I don't think that any statements saying something to the effect of "It's a Honda; there's no comparison" is fair in this instance.

the "New" Jetta is ranked among the least reliable cars sold today. CR is a huge fan of VW's, but is very disappointed in the new Golf/Jetta/Bettle line. I know some people with the Jetta, and love the TDI driveline, but are frustrated with the poor build quality of the car. Too bad, 'cause they are terrific looking cars with interiors nicer than any new MB except the W211 or R230.