I'll try to keep my response to this accusation as brief and concise as possible:









"Yes."

Mike

Fairtax is compelling because its claims are compelling. Sure we'd like to believe that we'll all be better off and in a sense we do need that belief, but I wonder if we're really dreaming. For example, take the claim that removing corporate taxes and compliance costs will result in lower prices. Maybe initially, but in the long run after we get our initial 20% break, prices will eventually rise again. Everyone plays by the same set of rules. Take away those rules and replace them with one rule and they're all still playing by the same rule. There's no more, nor any less, competition than before the rule changes. We've just made the goalposts larger.

Nope, nope, nope. That's an oversimplification.

At the risk of being annoying (I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time!), I'll repeat myself:

Read the book.

It will be the best 20 bucks (or so) that you've spent in a long time.

Mike

Give up your military industrial compulsion, and maybe you'll achieve authenticity
 

Gah, as if either of you two had even the remotest connection to libertarianism...fakers.

Explain it to me. I don't want to read a bunch of promises, I want you to show me why I'm wrong, then I'll buy the book.

If the IRS were a business, they would be out of business. There is no way they can accurately enforce compliance with the code, because they don't even understand it anymore. My own tax advisor told me to call a tax attorney with my question because he couldn't navigate the ambiguous rules. I'm a detail-oriented person, and this stuff drives me nuts.

You may be right about everything eventually seeking its own level, but there will be a new level of efficiency with FairTax. Thats good when it comes to international competition, bringing jobs here and selling goods abroad.

As lawmakers apply more rules to the existing tax code, it will only get worse. Eventually most taxpayers will be in violation of some rule, and nobody will even care. It's integrity is shot. It's time to mothball this old steam engine.

I really don't give a damn whether you consider me an "authentic" libertarian or not. And I'm sure that Botnst cares just as little as I do.

We've beaten this horse many times already, have we not?... (sigh......) :rolleyes: But I'll go one more round, if I must....

My positions on various issues are what they are. While I am a member of NO political party, my overall priorities are more closely aligned with the libertarians than with any other party that I am aware of....

So I tend to identify myself with them, even though I will never adhere strictly to every detail of the party's "official" stance on every issue, like the good little sheep that you obviously want us to be. I prefer to think for myself.

Regardless, your opinion of me and my politics is pretty much LAST on my "list of things to worry about". I will waste no more effort responding such meaningless drivel.

Next.

Mike

If the issue is truly important to you, then why don't you read the book, and educate yourself?

Why merely rely on me, when there is a wealth of material available from true experts on the subject? It is not merely a book of "promises", it is a book full of well-researched, well-documented information. All of the answers you seek are contained within.

The FairTax plan itself (as the book would tell you, if you would read it) was devised by experts such as the heads of the economics departments of Harvard, MIT, etc.... NOT by politicians! Why would you consult me, when you can read the book and consult THEM?

Additionally, TONS of links and info can be found on the fairtax.org site.... Since you don't want to do your own homework on it, then I'll offer a little cut-and-paste assistance:

_________


As FairTaxers, we all hear the refrain from our anti-capitalist opponents. Typically this is from those folks who are more of the knee-jerk opponents, not the people making reasonable arguments. But even unreasonable people need to be refuted from time to time.

“I just don’t think these greedy businesses are going to lower their prices! After all, these corporations will charge as much as they can, and why would they lower prices when the embedded taxes are removed?”

To those sorts of people, who are typically the kind who think price gouging exists and must be stamped out by the government, the response needs to be simple and something everyone can relate to. How about this?

“And just what has happened to your gas prices in the last few weeks? After the hurricanes, when prices shot up, why didn’t they stay there? After all, the gas stations knew that people could afford to pay the prices, but they lowered them anyway!”

In the last 3-4 weeks, I’ve seen gas prices here in Marietta drop about $0.50/gallon. From their highs after they stabilized a couple of days after Hurricane Rita hit, they’re about 70 to 80 cents lower. What’s brought this on? Lower wholesale prices and competition.

To people who don’t believe in capitalism and competition, it’s not enough to just say to them that it will happen because the market demands that they drop their prices. These are the types of people who think that the gas stations actually set the price of gasoline, as opposed to the market setting the price and the gas stations conforming to market conditions. When you can show a concrete example of the market driving prices down, however, the message just might sink in.


The burden of price reduction must be placed on the consumer. When the gas prices did drop, they did not all drop at all stations at the same time. Let’s say that a Shell station receives a two-day supply of gas on a given morning at $3.09 per gallon. That afternoon wholesale prices drop 15 cents per gallon. Then the BP station across the street gets a tanker delivery for two-day supply. The BP business owner could price his gas at $2.94 – but decides to sell gas at $2.99 because that price still beats the Shell station.

Now where are you going to fill up? Sure the BP station is making more money per gallon than normal – you might even call it price gouging. However, the lines will form at the BP station. Two days latter, the wholesale price has dropped another 5 cents per gallon. The Shell station prices its new gas at $2.89. The BP station still has the $2.94 gas (selling at $2.99) and drops his price 5 cents to minimize the price difference.

At the end of the second day, Shell is at $2.89 and BP is at $2.94. Where are you going to fill up?

If a business does fight for sticky prices, DON’T SHOP THERE – find a retailer that does offer lower prices. The BP station was smart to try to sell the gas for 5 cents more than he could – that is his job. A business’s job is to sell for as much as it can. Demanding lower prices is the job of the consumer.

So, anyone who believes business will try to keep prices sticky is correct. Again, that’s their job. We would be wrong to deny that fact. But, if these same people think that they have no influence on prices, they are wrong. If the price is too high, keep your money in your pocket or find a fair retailer – That is our job as a consumer.

When the FairTax legislation is enacted, and your favorite retailer does not lower prices, delay the purchase and hold your money for another week. The business will either come around and lower prices or go bankrupt. I think they will choose to offer lower prices.

We all live with an interesting duplicity. During the day, we fight for the highest price we can – our wage. Then at night we fight for the lowest price at the supermarket. This duplicity is called a free market. It works when we all do our part.

[On a side note, the high gas prices was not caused or set by the oil companies. Fear of a shortage hit the market and everyone filled their tank and gas stations ran dry. Gas station managers had to call for emergency deliveries and paid a premium price. The resulting price increase reinforced consumer fear and those who did not yet fill up did. Those of us who did fill up, topped off our tanks again. More shortages resulted in higher prices, and so the story continued. The moral here is that we did the high gas prices to ourselves.]

________


More:


Will corporations get a windfall with the abolition of the corporate tax? Corporations are legal fictions that have not, do not, and never will bear the burden of taxation. Only people pay taxes. Corporations pass on their tax burden in the form of higher prices to consumers, lower wages to workers, and/or lower returns to investors. The idea that taxing a corporation reduces taxes on, say the working poor, is a cruel hoax. A corporate tax only makes what the working poor buy more expensive, costs them jobs, lowers lifestyle, or delays retirement. Under the FairTax plan, money retained in the business and reinvested to create jobs, build factories, or develop new technologies, pays no tax. This is the most honest, fair, productive tax system possible. Free market competition will do the rest.



How will the plan affect economic growth? With the penalty for working harder and producing more removed, Americans are free to keep every dollar they earn, and a new era of economic growth and job creation is unleashed. Hidden taxes are history, Americans are able to save more, and businesses invest more. Capital formation, the real source of job creation and innovation, is facilitated. Gross domestic product (GDP) increases by an estimated 10.5 percent in the first year alone. The FairTax as proposed raises the economy’s capital stock by 42 percent, its labor supply by four percent, its output by 12 percent, and its real wage rate by eight percent.

As U.S. companies and individuals repatriate, on a tax-free basis, income generated overseas, huge amounts of new capital flood into the United States. With such a huge capital supply, real interest rates remain low. Additionally, other international investors will seek to invest here to avoid taxes on income in their own countries, thereby further spurring the growth of our own economy.



What changes come at the retail level with the FairTax? Our baby boom generation has been trained to spend money before inflation eats it up or savings is taxed away. This group, for good or evil, will likely spend their initial pay raise. Others will recognize the advantages of savings and investment. There will be a whole new round of home refinancings. There will likely be a lot of interest in the actual cost of the federal government when consumers see their most recent contribution at the bottom of each retail receipt.

Since the FairTax plan is revenue neutral, the same amount of resources is extracted from the economy as is extracted under current law. These funds are, however, extracted in a less economically damaging way. Every known economic projection shows the economy doing better, often much better, under the FairTax.
Because the economy grows, is more efficient, and more productive, while investment, wages and consumption are higher than they are under the income tax.



How does this affect U.S. competitiveness in foreign trade? Since all U.S. exporters immediately see an average 20-percent reduction in their production costs, they experience an immediate boost in their competitiveness overseas. American companies doing business internationally are able to sell their goods at lower prices but similar margins, and this brings jobs to America.

In addition, U.S. companies with investments or plants abroad will bring home overseas profits without the penalty of paying income taxes, thus resulting in more U.S. capital investment.

And at last, imports and domestic production are on a level playing field. Exported goods are not subject to the FairTax, since they are not consumed in the U.S.; but imported goods sold in the U.S. are subject to the FairTax because these products are consumed domestically.


Want more? Go here: http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/industry_impact.html
Or here: http://www.fairtax.org/business_economy.html
Or here: http://www.fairtax.org/links.html
Or here: http://fairtaxvolunteer.org/materials/index.html
Or here: http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/rebuttals.html
Or here: http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/archive/200509/20050901_transcript.html#1

The FairTax bill itself: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.25:

While we're on a "link binge", allow me to sneak in one that exposes the anti-capitalist/pro-income tax Noam Chomsky for what he really is: a complete hypocrite: http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=1019055


Want more?.........


....read the book. ;) :D

___________________________

Mike

Mike you ask me to read the book and then give me no reason to read it. Please don't act like one of my professors who used to quizically stare at me for 20 seconds as if I were dumb and then blurt out to the class that it's obvious and asked me if I read the book.

If you want to educate, then educate. You're just preaching.

It has nothing to do with my opinion of you--just the facts man, just the facts
 

That would be a small "L" Mikey. I mentioned nothing about a party. Imperialism and libertarianism are entirely incompatible, and you consistently fail the libertarian sniff test on those grounds. I consistently fail on other grounds, but then, I don't claim to be a libertarian.

Instead of asking why the income tax should be repealed, we should be questioning how it became legal in the first place. If we were to start all over again, and placed IRS and FairTax side by side for comparison, there is no question which is preferable.

No doubt, if not for any other reason than it's simpler. I dislike the FairTax rhetoric. There's no guarantee, not even a good chance, that all the claims on the website or the book which I haven't read, will materialize. It's a little like the rhetoric get rich quick scam artists use. People buy into the promise and nothing happens.

The only way nothing will happen is if we do nothing. It's a little scary to think of life without income tax and everything that's ingrained in the system over the years. But it can be done. It's kind of like getting a new job and moving into a better neighborhood. You end up wondering why you didn't do it sooner.

Good Lord!! :eek:

Can they be stopped?!

All too easily.